[Podcast] Product Marketing is Broken (With Stacy Dally)

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Ryan

In today's episode, we're gonna talk about something that we believe is pretty important. Product marketing has a huge part of our life here at Leadpages but more importantly, it might involve you and your business.

How it's fixed or how it's broken is going to be the hard-hitting discussion today. We're going to find our way to something that's even more interesting. Chinese Democracy, 17 years in the making. Guns N’ Roses told us they'd be the best thing we'd ever seen since sliced bread. Were they right, where they wrong? We're going to talk about it, and much more on today's episode of On the Record.

All right. Today on On the Record, we're joined by Stacy Daly. Stacy, who joins us from the product marketing perspective. Have robust opinions, hard-hitting opinions at times. Thrilled to get into. Of course to my right here, Michael Sacca, CEO of Leadpages. I just coined myself the head honcho of marketing. But we're thrilled today to talk about how product marketing is broken and what you can do to fix it.

It was just 45 days ago when Michael and I sat around what perhaps a Zoom call action we discussed. How do we bring messaging to the market that looks dissimilar to the rest? Right? The podcast is vast. We all know that there's a million of these things out there. What did we find that we could do truly different and unique onto ourselves?

Well, we thought, can we pair marketing with music? Two of our greatest passions. We're trying to build performance marketers. We do it through our technology. We do it through conversation. And now we do it through thought leadership. So we're going to find ourselves talking about, again, some of these hard-hitting topics that many of ourselves ask on a daily basis, and we're to have some fun along the way

We're going to find a way to talk about great albums, albums that are critically acclaimed, others that are, well, a little more underwhelming, if you will. And we're going to take that word of we the discussions today together to bring a quite compelling story to you. So on the record, that's what we're here to talk about. Michael, your version of it, your thoughts on it.

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Michael

Yeah. So I mean, I think there's so much we can learn from music. It's so universal, but there's so many great stories behind every album, and there's so much that we can draw out of those that we can apply to our work today. And I think that's part of our goal here, is to make some of those connections so that we can learn and maybe open up, our perspective of what is possible in our daily work.

Ryan

Absolutely. You know, a lot of deep personal experiences and connections that we'll get into again. So maybe you take us through just what product marketing means to you.

Stacy

Sure. Well, happy to be here. Product marketing to me is really about aligning the product with the customer. So whether it be a new feature or a brand new product, that's really about finding the fit with the product and with the customer.

Ryan

Well, Michael, your version of it seems I mean, we all have our feelings about this.

Michael

Yeah. And I think often that's what we get wrong is where we align it with maybe the feature, or what we feel like the benefit is, but it's that customer research that really makes the difference between a great campaign and a lackluster one.

Ryan

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So product marketing to me is one of the greatest advantages that any marketer has, right? It's our ability to differentiate ourselves, look a little different than the rest, tell our unique story and deliver value that should be exclusive to us. I'm always stoked and product's able to build something that I'm able to bring to market, right?

That's when a marketer gets excited and we always think, product, can you give us more? Can you give it to us faster? But if I don't have the message correct I mean, the tree falls in the woods. Does anybody hear it? Perhaps not. So amplifying and accelerating that story is something I'm always thrilled about, but how we go about it is one of which I think is in question. And maybe, what do you think about differentiation? Like is it being done well today? Is it falling behind the times?

Michael

I think, oftentimes we're asking marketing teams to find the differentiation because, we're building for the market. Very few companies are building a net new feature like things we've never seen before. And I think too often we lean on the marketing team to find that unique perspective. But the problem with it is if it doesn't start with the product, if it doesn't start with a great feature like you mentioned, no matter how good of a story you tell around it, if the feature doesn't match the promise that we're making to the customer, the marketer is seen as failing.

But really, I think the failure starts with was the product, feature ambitious enough for us to even take to market in the first place? I think that the level and tone that you used to in the marketing, right, if you're shouting from the rooftops about it, unimportant feature, which we'll talk a little bit about more today. Yeah, that can also fall flat no matter how well executed.

Ryan

I couldn't agree more. There's a is option emotional component to this right. Like we're trying to connect with them on a different level. We're all trying to drive results, hit KPIs, all the associated marketing lingo. But there's really an emotional connection. If we can get you to your results in a way that hits the bottom line or impacts you personally. It's a compelling thing that has stickiness, which all of us are constantly and you can sell absolutely.

Stacy

What I think we also heard was Michael say, it's never the marketer's fault, it's always product’s. Well, I like that. I mean, like putting it out there, like that's what I just heard. So I just want to make sure everyone got that too.

Michael

I think there's many components to it.

Stacy

Yeah, I do think sometimes it gets lost in translation from going from product into marketing. Right. Product’s very excited about X, Y, and Z functionality, and it's like gibberish to the rest of us. And so having that translation without getting lost, the actual point sometimes that I feel is where we can kind of miss the mark a little bit of how we're passing that off, not only between internally, but then externally into the market.

Michael

Yeah.

Ryan

And I think there's a component. Right. We're always looking to pay off the investment that a company has made. Sometimes marketing is a little to remove. We see engineering and product go off and spend 3 or 4 months developing a feature. There's a capital association with an investment. I mean, marketers have to take it as seriously as the business has taken it to invest 50, 800, $200,000.

So that translation of value from what we've done and the belief system that we, you know, bring forward to market, it's critical to to tie it all together. And I think that's where marketing has to hold up their end of the bargain. And sometimes they have to show when maybe it hasn't been accelerated. So it should.

Stacy

And on the flip side too, if it only took a couple weeks or even a month, but it could be a really big impact on our customer recognizing that too. I think it goes the other way. I can, even if it is just a small build, but the customer has been asking for it for years. Yeah. Making sure that the message reflects the customer's excitement, not just the build time too.

Ryan

How do you capture the voice of the customer? There's a lot of people that are doing interviews, constantly doing market research. But how have you done so recently? Or maybe take us through an experience?

Stacy

Sure. So getting to know a customer is always tough, especially if you've never been in the customer’s shoes yourself. Personally, I have never been an entrepreneur, so congratulations. I have much respect for everyone who has been because holy cow! So for me, it's really about reading in the customer's own words, whether it be surveys or whether it's their feedback or jumping on support calls or hearing and chatting with what they're what they're saying, or the whole formal interviews, actual research and things like that.

But personally, I really want to hear it straight from their mouth because I want to hear the words that they're using and how they're describing it. I feel like, again, there's that translation piece, and when someone support tells me, then they're translating in their own, and I want to hear the words that they're using so I can use those words right back to the customer as well.

Ryan

Yeah, that becomes our marketing often, right? I mean, we almost verbatim sometimes will catch a quote or a little clip from a customer and say, that's that's it, right? Yeah. Often the best feedback is this is the way the marketing, the messaging comes to learn.

Michael

Absolutely. Yeah. I think one of the we're talking about kind of what's broken about this, I think one of the things that we can do to get a better feedback loop is smaller, iterative releases, which gives you a chance now as a marketer, to then go out and talk to the customer before we're maybe shouting from the rooftops that we've changed the industry.

How do we step into it so that we can slowly build that story along with the product, too? Because oftentimes we have an idea of what we want to do, what the endpoint is. But that might not be the right answer. And so these iterative releases help us get to something much bigger. But I think we've been a bit trained.

We've, you know, Steve Jobs launch of the iPhone. We've been trained by these huge campaigns. But we often don't see all the work behind the scenes that went into the research and development. And I think that style of product development would also help you guys, as marketers, hear from the customer about something that might be net new to their experience.

Ryan

Yeah. I mean, you're playing to the listener, you're talking to a marketer. Maybe the fact that we have more to talk about more frequently. I mean, it's exciting because I think these we have every touchpoint we have with a customer is an ability to add trust or lose that trust in that frequency. And now that we're able to really deliver is is a huge accelerant for the business as a whole.

And how we shop and market is vastly different because of it. So I think this idea of ship small ship fast scale accordingly is something you kind of believe in and kind of permeating throughout our organization. Maybe talk a little bit more about how you came to this and why it's maybe been a part of the backbone and who's a product leader.

Michael

Yeah. Well, I think it's about, getting it wrong so many times too. Like we have these great ideas, we think we're aligned with the customer. We spend six months, eight months building, and then you release it. And no matter how well we tell the story, we build the video like it doesn't actually resonate. And I'm sure you've experienced this as well.

Stacy

Yes, unfortunately. I mean, it's a little like, dating. Well, I don't know how you guys like to date. But personally, I would rather constant communication. I'm a millennial, so all the texting, constant texts, right? Versus the every month I get some big grand gesture, but it's the same thing. Like, I'd rather just. You tell. Ask me.

Hey, how's my day? You know something with a little bit of value? It's not like, wow, look at this amazing parachute and dinner and wine and everything. It's like, Hey, how are you? Not like, I would appreciate that much more. And then it's just the little interactions, right? That's really where I think it's nice to have an excuse.

Yeah. So talk a little bit about something. Not a huge value, but hey it's still an excuse to engage. Yeah.

Ryan

100%. Yeah. And I think one of the side benefits to this is this idea of reduced costs. Reduce like risk mitigation. Right. Because we're not spending the better part of the year building a specific feature set of which we all hope wins but doesn't always win. So I mean, as a person, imagine the bottom line. I mean, you must love this idea of bottom line frugality and just responsibility.

Michael

Yeah. And agility. Yeah. So, like, if we do get it wrong, I'd rather take a small bet than a really big swing. And I, I've gotten caught up in too many of those, and we can believe our own hype. And we build and we build and then we release. And maybe it has, like, some impact, but it doesn't have the impact that is in relation to the time it takes to bring it to life.

And I think we've, we've addressed this from like a product side in the industry. Right. We talk about agile development, but I think it's fair to ask marketers to request this of their product teams as well as a better way for them to be successful in their role. That's not a conversation that I often hear. Or I think people even feel comfortable doing is going and saying, I actually need this smaller so that I can learn.

Michael

And if we want to build up to this big iPhone launch, I need to know what's actually going to hit, because we're going to have a window of opportunity to take advantage of it.

Stacy

Yeah, I think that goes for marketing, too. It's not just product that's hedging their bets and will releases. It's marketing on the messaging too. Is it the right? Is this the right message, the right tone, the right audience? I mean, with these little iterative releases, you can also start to hone in on the message too, because maybe you didn't get it right the first, second, third time. Yeah. By the fourth time you're like, got it right?

Ryan

I mean, because I'm signing up for a check, I got a cash right in the way of revenue. This has been built, spent on, you know, ready to send to market. So the responsibility is vast. But I think, again, this, this constant communication. And one of the things that kind of also spawns from this idea of cross-collaboration through departments.

We have to reach our hand across the aisle. I think in larger organizations it's seen more commonly than small, but sometimes it's kind of siloed work. Right. And all of a sudden something shows up on a marketer's doorstep one day. We're supposed to be thrilled about it. Sometimes it comes to see, sometimes it comes too late. Yeah. And we're asked to react to it as well.

So I think this idea of communications, which the common threads we're pulling on today, so critically important to establishing a product marketing message that matters in the wins, one of which is not broken and dissipates, you know, under the thin air.

Michael

So yeah. Yeah, I think an example of a company that does is really well, kind of like to your dating example where you want these like little text. Right. Isn't this figma? And I remember being kind of stuck in a bit of a behemoth roadmap and then watching their team at Twitter at the time. Now X but, their team released these really small features and it was just like little text messages back to there.

And it was it was things that if you were from the outside, you might not even really understand why that feature was important. But there were things that their customers and designers had been asking for, and every time they released it, it was as if a new iPhone came out. The people were so excited, and they were able to build this almost weekly buzz around the developments of their product.

But, you know, they were it was very incremental. And so, when I saw that, I realized we we don't it was kind of an moment where we don't need to be building these behemoth features, hoping that one of them is going to win. We can just iteratively improve. And if we can build that excitement with our with our audience, that in itself becomes a conversation that we don't have to restart every six months.

Ryan

Yeah, maybe something that just comes to mind as we're talking about this is how do you sometimes say we have to adopt this minimum viable product if we're going to meet the schedule, which we're talking about, aggressive releases, fast value. How do you convince a marketer sometimes to say it's enough to talk about, right when, let's say, look at that user experience.

Oh boy, I don't know what to say about that. But the reality is this this iterative model and agile working, we have to accept that. So how do you get marketers to message with confidence even though it might not be perfect?

Michael

Yeah. Well, I think part of it is like bringing the customer along for the journey. Yeah. And I think oftentimes we're trying to be that like perfect person. Right? We're trying to do the big dinner or whatever it is, right to that, to that kind of example. But if we bring them along for the ride, it's so much more intimate.

Right? It's like, it's it's a conversation that doesn't need to be grand all the time, but it piques their interest because there's evolution, there's things happening. And I think we've really tried to move in this direction. You've championed it, on some of our releases that have gotten much smaller more recently.

Stacy

Yeah. I mean, I'll throw myself under the bus here. I also got it wrong still. And the fact because like Ryan says, sometimes it's hard to champion. We know this is what the customer wants over here. But we gave them this. And so it's like, how can we still get excited about this. Because does the customer really want what they're asking for, what we think, or if we give them this other solution, will it actually satisfy what they needed?

But they just didn't know it? Yeah. And so sometimes it's hard to muster up that excitement and like all the energy and effort behind it, especially if you're siloed into the department and you're not getting that feedback from support or from product, saying millions of people have asked for this in the last couple of years. And so when you miss that and you're kind of like, it's not what they really want.

Like then sometimes you can have a lackluster, announcement or release when really actually the customer is great with it. And you know, you see sometimes you got to just fake it and maybe also convince the customer. You know, I think this is actually what you wanted. This is it like, let's go.

Ryan

Yeah. I mean, you turn it back to think of Henry Ford in his famous statement. You know, if you'd asked the customer what they wanted about 100 years ago, they would have told him faster horses. The market didn't know they needed an automobile until he brought them this revolutionary solution. So I like this idea. Creating a story, allowing for the appropriate balance of vulnerability.

Right? You have to own who you are. There's going to be some rough edges. But actually, I think the customer to your point can appreciate that, right? They feel along for the ride. It's a connected experience for us. Marketers will look at metrics and three letter acronyms like we think about lifetime value. This is how you start to build lifetime value.

I mean, so I think it's hard to argue against seeing the points we're making, but we love for others to do so. If they feel differently.

Michael

You're also giving them kind of a hope, right? If we don't satisfy their needs today, if we can at least show them that we're moving in that direction for them to switch to another product, that's painful, everyone like knows it. The next product needs to be ten times better for them to really put the momentum into switching.

So part of our goal is to instill a little bit of that hope along the way. So they're not considering going over to our competitor. That might have more of the feature that they're looking for. But if they know we're going to have it in a couple of months because we started to tease it out, we've started to develop in that area.

We can give them that hope that they'll stick around without going out and, experimenting in the market. Yeah.

Ryan

No, I love that. I think it's probably time to maybe segue and start to get it closer to the musical score of the day. Right? I think we're talking a lot about how do you manage expectations. What does that look like? We talk off the top right, a record that we all are familiar with. They did a horrible job of manufacturing 70 years to produce anything. Seems comical, but, I think we get into that a little bit more here.

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Ryan

We left off at the start of managing expectations. Right. Product marketing without it doesn't make a lot of sense, right? The customer has to know what they want. We as marketers have to be able to tell them what they want in theory. But the fun part of today's discussion was looking at this example of music and how it maybe wasn't done correctly in that regard.

I hinted at earlier 17 years to produce a record. I think all of us know probably didn't take 17 years to do such a thing, but Guns N’ Roses did that. So when we talk about managing expectations, Michael, we walk into kind of this parallel Guns N’ Roses product marketing. You talk about your ethos, get it out fast, learn fast, and scale accordingly. Did this drill down a little further?

Michael

I think this is a perfect example of what can go wrong when we… I mean 17 years. No company is waiting 17 years. But even a year, even six months, right? Are these like, heroic launches that we, we we build up, we build up, we build up. I'm going to put it on in this case, the record.

Very underwhelming. And I think what we saw in kind of the promotion of this album, it was very haphazard. It was kind of a solo act at that point.

Ryan

It was.

Michael

And you're watching this, this kind of big ego who is promising the world to everyone, and eventually had to deliver. And it kind of felt like there was a moment where, it became clear that he needed to release something new and this is what we, we ended up getting. And I think the world responded accordingly.

And, a very underwhelming product, but one that we paid attention to because the product marketing was so compelling in its kind of mystery.

Ryan

I didn't use that word mystery. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. One thing I think that as we were talking about this idea of shipping, fast shipping, small time is, in theory, on our side, right? We can wait for the right thing to happen at the right moment. But this is this belief that sometimes we as product owners think we have something so good that no matter when we get it to the market, they're going to love it because we're just that great.

I think there's this idea that we have to accept that we're always not right. And I think Axl Rose and Guns N’ Roses thought they were right the whole time, and they refused to accept the fact that others might look at it differently. And our product marketing became quite similar. Right. Like, I have this great story just locked up.

I'm ready to throw out there. They're going to love it when it hits the market, because why wouldn't they? I worked hard on it. I believe in it. It doesn't always work, right? I mean, consumers teach us things all the all the time, it seems. And now often we're surprised by it as well.

Stacy

To play devil's advocate, was it really a flop? It still went platinum and we're talking about it right now. And then how many years did we talk about Guns N’ Roses while they were making it? Like, what's the measurement of success? Like, did they stay relevant in those 17 years because there is this long-awaited album coming out like they were able to get in the news and be buzzy a little bit without actually giving us anything?

Like, that's pretty awesome. So maybe the music itself flopped, but not the brand necessarily. Like, was it still worth it?

Ryan

Did they master PR or do they master product marketing? I mean, that might be the kind of the catalyst of this discussion is that one or the other, are they two in the same?

Michael

Sometimes I think it's a great point. I mean, they really did. And how many albums did they sell because of it? There could be something there. I don't know if anyone's done the math on it. I, I think the other kind of, when we relate it back to our work is the market changes and the market in the 80s, when Guns N’ Roses was at its heyday.

It's much different than the market in the 2000s. And so the expectations, I think, evolved. But I don't know if the band itself evolved with it, and we can fall victim to the same consequences. As we've had a couple good launches. We've built a company. People are always going to love us. I think one of the takeaways is you actually need to keep up with where things are heading.

If you want to continue to see that success. There really is no resting on laurels here. I think that was some of what we got here was, he was able to to really leverage the big brand of Guns N’ Roses into all this PR but I think the the output wasn't really in sync with the the times, although the brand was so good that you're right, there wasn't a fan sitting around to buy it. Now, maybe they enjoyed it. I don't know.

Ryan

It's a story of evangelism that started well into the, you know, in the early 80s and fell itself all the way into the 2000, to your point, stay. So, I mean, maybe there was some success inherently into this. And I think the one thing that we continue to kind of align on is this pursuit of perfection is often the greatest barrier to you and your growth levers, whatever it might be.

We have to accept that MVP's and less is more in some capacity is really how all businesses, no matter your size, your revenue, whatever it might be, have to probably remind themselves. And I think we get lost. Yeah, we always want the best, most impactful thing. I don't care if it's product engineering marketing. Problem is, it gets in the way often of our goals and Chase, you know, treating those in the short timelines.

Michael

Yes, absolutely.

Stacy

Yeah. I think you really hit home when you said in the 80s, you know, this is what they were listening to. And perfectly honest, I don't know what the 80s were like. I was around, I'm a 90s child myself, but when I was listening to it, had a nice trip back from Nebraska. Road trip, when I was listening to it with my husband, who also is a millennial, we both were like, this sounds dated, the sounds like old this year.

And we're like, wait, when was this release? Like, this was not like any of the other music we listened to at that time. And we do like rock. Like it's not just like, oh, we don't like this kind of music. It's just like, well, this is like something our parents listened to. But it was released when we were actually buying albums and things like that.

So it was just kind of a when you say the market shifts, I mean, I feel like I was a great example of that with this album.

Ryan

You're able to talk about a drive to Nebraska and how you're able to look at the record. I mean, let's remind ourselves of what we're talking about today. I'm not even exactly sure what this visual really does tell us about Chinese democracy. But it happened, and we do have feelings about it. So, I mean, Michael, here it is. Yeah. What were your feels? Did it hit with you? Did it resonate in any capacity?

Michael

So I was born in the 80s, so a little too early to be a Guns N’ Roses but I can kind of appreciate the sound and why it was popular at that time. But honestly, it didn't even really resonate compared to their old albums. It was missing a lot. And I feel like too much time had passed and they just feel a bit rusty. And so while I can kind of appreciate some of, you know, Axl's voice, some of the, the, the songwriting on there as a package, it just didn't really feel like it was going to come together, especially in the context of the greatest album, I believe, that was ever to be released.

Even looking at the packaging, it doesn't feel like you got a top-tier artist to come through and build out this spectacle of the Guns N’ Roses brand. I'm not even really sure where some of the concepts start to come together.

Ryan

Yeah, it's hard to understand because, I mean, I think what they lost was that you think of appetite for destruction, this incredible record that changed many people's lives. For those of us, the important thing is me included here as well. We lost some of that because here comes this lineup change, right? I'll go slash one of the most prolific guitar players of all time.

Also, I see Axl's credited with guitar throughout the record. I'm thinking, I mean, I love you, Axl, but I'm not sure you hold up to Slash, and then in comes this cat with a KFC buckethead kind of approach to love that as a marketer. But secondarily, I think it was more gimmicky than anything that had any great depth or content.

Right? You could see them chasing the story of yesteryear. And I saw you a pitchfork. We all have to look at attributes that even if this was released in 96, I think it was dated in 96. Yes, record and had short, you know, shelved too much later than that. So it's hard not to get back to things that once worked.

Right. Because we're all beholden. Like I found success. Then why can't I do it again? Now, the reality is that we've talked about market trends shift and change. Here. We're looking at a group that didn't move with the times. Yeah, it was kind of a death sentence on their career. Now they're all making millions touring. There's still arenas looking at them like selling sounds decent still to this day does.

But when we think about this as a release and something that, again, was built up to of what was such a great period of time, I mean, we missed the mark. They ignored how things had changed, and they themselves were so beholden to a moment in which they were successful. So why can't we do it again? And I think that's where they might have fallen short.

I mean, there's some brash, exciting guitar moments and some decent compositions, but as a whole, there's nothing that you can cherry-pick out and say, oh, that was great. I'm going to come back to that. You must leave with the ability to go back and say track seven again, please, or.

Michael

I cannot really recall. It all kind of blends together, to be honest. I, you do wonder what would happen if they had released iteratively, like, what if they had just even if you have a couple of those bad metal albums, could they have taken some of that feedback, some of that touring, some of that, that kind of audience building?

And would we have gotten would they have gotten to an album that they would have been proud of in releasing the greatest record ever later on in their career, if they had actually, kept fresh and learning in.

Ryan

Let's think of a solution for them. We're talking about small iterative releases. Why didn't I see a single or two? Why wasn't there a cadence in which there was this? Well, here's a couple and see what the market says, right? That's our idea. We ship fast, we ship small, we hear what the market says, and if there's resonance, we double down on it.

Why didn't Guns N’ Roses or Axl in this situation send a signal out? They didn't have to sit in a quiet closet in a corner for 17 bleeping years to get to this point. But they chose to know. Is that ignorance? Is that arrogance?

Stacy

Arrogance.

Ryan

Perhaps arrogance? It's marketers, and as such we cannot be arrogant, even though sometimes we'd like to think that we know enough to be.

Stacy

You know, a bit arrogant. Right? To would Axl don't know him, but would he take customer people's feedback like was it intentional like you? So like, I know what I'm doing, I don't care, I'm going to sit on this. I know what's best. I don't care what anyone thinks. Like that arrogance can kind of come out and probably be prevalent.

Yeah, and he wore that right. But us as marketers, as a company that's harder to wear in this up then you don't recognize that yourself. That is what you're you're exuding to your customers by having these longer releases saying you know exactly what's going on, easier to identify. And other people, especially like Mr. Axl himself.

Ryan

That's a great lesson to be learned today, though, too, is this is the idea of self-importance and that we know more than the customer. We never do. Yeah. I mean, we rarely might if we're lucky, but, this is a great example of, again, listening to the market, listen to your customers, no matter your company shape, size, or color. This is a great kind of identifying quality.

Michael

Yeah, that was my biggest takeaway from the whole thing, is the album feels more like a story. That's bigger, that's wrapped up in the PR, that's wrapped up in the mythology of it, than a body of work itself out of growing out.

Stacy

I mean, if he was looking for my feedback, what really what a miss really would have crushed it for me. Apparently Shaq, was well, how does the story go? He was like recording a Taco Bell commercial or something in the same studio. Decided to drop by, started rapping and like riffing with these guys like. And they're going on here at one point like got down and did the worm.

Ryan

Shaq was doing the worm? That's that's something that we have to see YouTube must have that's available.

Stacy

That's what I'm saying. Like how did that not make it on the album? Like him. Just like going off. It's like Shaq. Like if I mean that would have really helped me out there. That would have been some feedback I could have given, you know, but I didn't get the chance to. True.

Michael

That's true.

Ryan

And the moment of virality. Yeah. That's a nice little quip to the story here. As we close it out, it feels as though we've smashed danced all over this record. But it is interesting how a correlates back to today's topic, and I think we can start to talk about some key takeaways, right. As we kind of conclude this episode, because I think there's been a lot of good discussion.

But I mean, Michael, going back to this philosophy that we're beholden to. And I think that Stacy and I share with you, ship fast, ship small, what could it what can the listener take away today, no matter their business, that they're an e-com, mid-market, big business? What does that apply to them?

Michael

Yeah, well, I think it's everyone's responsibility. And I think, it's not effective to point the fingers to get this done, but I do think that we should all feel in power to hopefully we feel empowered to go and at least introduce this concept because there's many sides to it. It's not just a product benefit. I think there's huge benefits to the marketing team, and it's just a conversation that I think we can have more.

Ryan

Yeah, I can’t agree more. Stacy, the key takeaway from you, some of them, they feel like the listener could grab on to and apply maybe to their business.

Stacy

Yeah, I think, constantly checking your ego. Kind of we're going back to this arrogance can kind of creep its way in. Whether it be constantly checking in with the customer at our releases, not hiding in a corner for too long, or putting yourself in the silo, even if you've been at the company for three or four or five years, you know, customers haven't been.

There are new customers constantly refreshing, constantly checking your ego and making sure that you actually do know what they want, what's going on, and finding different ways to get that feedback.

Ryan

Yeah, I'd have to agree with you. This pursuit of perfection that we talked about today is something a marketer often chases, but rarely works the way that they want to. Right? Allow yourself some grace. Allow yourself a little bit of those moments of which is not perfect. Your customers, to Michael's point earlier, will appreciate kind of this intimate experience in which you're growing together.

We 80 pages are adopting that philosophy, and we hear it literally from our customers in return. We believe in theory. For other businesses, same kind of mentality could work. So I think these three key takeaways are the things that we can apply, in others of kind of as well to their business and hopefully find that success. So absolutely.

Michael

Yeah.

Ryan

We hope that the listeners feel the value we brought to the conversation. Again, we hope to be entertaining along the way. And I think our laughs, might have been sued in, in a way in which we all did appreciate the discussion. Michael has been a pleasure to have your thoughts here. Obviously, from a CEO perspective, I think that gives a macro view on many businesses loud and seeing.

And Stacy, thank you for the color and the commentary. The product marketing tilted today's discussion as well. We certainly advanced things when you shared the fact that check that the one I didn't know that was gonna find its way to today's discussion, but I'm thrilled by it. So, this is probably brought to you by lead pages.

You'll find much of this on your favorite podcasting platforms into the future. We hope to stay connected and, much more to come from on the record.