Jump to Section
arrow down

[Podcast] Why Diversification is the New Marketing Superpower (With Stacy Dally)

By The Leadpages Team  |  Published Jan 27, 2025  |  Updated Jan 28, 2025
Leadpages Team
By The Leadpages Team
Otr  S2 E1 Og

Season 2 of On the Record kicks off with a bold challenge to Google’s dominance in marketing. Inspired by MF Doom’s Take Me to Your Leader, we explore the risks of over-reliance on paid search and the rewards of diversification. We discuss the rising costs of PPC advertising, diminishing ROI in Google’s ecosystem, and why diversifying your marketing strategy is critical for long-term success. If you’re looking to future-proof your digital marketing strategy, boost ROI, and grow beyond Google, this episode is for you.

Watch the podcast

Listen to the podcast

Otr Cta

Get The Latest Marketing Insights With a Musical Twist

Subscribe to On the Record, the hard-hitting podcast that combines valuable marketing insights with classic music with surprising results.

Ryan
Welcome to season two of On the Record. It's hard to believe that season one is already completed, and we're here doing this once again just a few short months after starting this amazing project. Michael, how's it been going? What's the feedback been like?

Michael
It's been amazing. I’ve hosted a podcast for the last ten years, but no one has ever seen my face. This is actually the first time people have connected the face to the voice in some capacity.

Stacy
And they like what they see.

Michael
I don’t know.

Michael
But it's been great. It's reached more people who would never turn on an audio podcast but will sit and watch a YouTube video. That's been a pleasant change for me.

Ryan
I agree. My parents took the big screen in their living room and projected it on their wall like it was a movie. Shoutout to Mom and Dad for doing that. I'm sure some people have shared their thoughts with you too.

Stacy
Yes, I have! A random hairdresser slid into my DMs, not loving my hair, so I spruced it up a little more for today. If you're out there, I hope you approve now.

Ryan
Weird flex to get in the DMs, right? But hey, you pick your audience where you find them. Cool. We're thrilled to be here and excited to do things a little differently today. We have some amazing music and topics to talk about for season two. I’m handing over the mic responsibilities to Stacy, because Michael and I couldn't help ourselves when it came to today's topics. Stacy, take it away!

Stacy
Thank you, thank you. Thanks for letting me command. Watch out when you give me the mic—might be the last thing you do! But let’s dive into the music. Take Me to Your Leader by King Geedorah. Michael, anyone who's seen your office background knows you have a lot to say about this. So please, take it away.

Michael
Absolutely. It's one of my favorite MF DOOM albums, mainly because he produced and performed on about half of it. But I also love how it ties into our topic today. This is one of five albums he released within two years, all on different labels. It was his attempt to diversify his catalog.

Michael
This album wasn’t under the “DOOM” brand, even though everyone knows it as a DOOM album. In the same year, he released this, a King Geedorah album, a Victor Vaughn album, a DOOM album, and then a supergroup project with Monster Island Czars. He illustrated, as a musician, how to take risks—not just relying on one label or one album to build his brand.

Michael
And I thought it tied nicely into today’s conversation: diversifying our marketing channels.

Ryan
Exactly. And I think underscoring the word "diversification" is key to what we'll talk about today. But I love when you mentioned "risk," because DOOM’s career was a gamble. Few have done what he did or challenged themselves to try.

A lot of people are sitting in paid media today thinking, "Google is my everything." Maybe it’s time to do things differently. If you challenge yourself to get uncomfortable, opportunities abound. I love what DOOM represents, and I think some of the tracks we’ll dive into bring this idea to life in a visceral way.

Stacy
Okay, speaking of tracks, I am not an MF DOOM fan. I’ll admit it—I need help. Full disclosure: I did my homework. I listened to the track Take Me to Your Leader. And I was like... okay? I hear cartoon samples, random kids, and... I don’t get it. Like, help me.

Ryan
What’s going on there?

Stacy
Yeah, what’s happening? And then I hear there’s a Godzilla tie-in? Can you educate me, please?

Michael
I think there are a couple of things happening here. One, DOOM produced the whole record, and he’s known for using cartoon samples. His whole persona comes from Doctor Doom, right? So there’s this tie-in to comic books and childhood nostalgia.

Then there’s the Japanese influence with King Geedorah. He’s pulling together these samples and influences. He also had a supergroup loosely inspired by Wu-Tang Clan. He was trying to pull on some of those threads and create his own supergroup.

The album came out slightly before that supergroup project, but it didn’t gain much traction. It’s not even in print anymore. This album was an extension of the work he was trying to push forward at the time.

Michael
So it’s a mix of influences, but it’s wholly him. The first time you hear it, though, it can be jarring. You kind of have to enter his universe to get it.

Ryan
Even the way he produces his drums is unconventional. I can visualize him on an MPC drum machine, creating patterns that aid his pacing and flow. His production is unusual—unlike anyone else. People have broken down his drum patterns over time, and they’re wildly sophisticated.

DOOM did something no one else had done and embraced it fully. As someone who’s been around sampling for much of my life, I’d say DOOM mastered it. The sounds he pulled from across the globe were prolific.

Ryan
For example, the song I Wonder caught my attention because the beat is incredible. It goes so hard, and then you layer something over the top that’s scientific but also pure and raw. That’s DOOM at his core—infectious as a collection.

Michael
Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of collaborations, most artists bring in big-name musicians to boost their profiles. DOOM, however, tried to do that himself.

One of the strongest tracks on the record, Anti-Matter, features Mr. Fantastik. He only shows up on two DOOM songs and, to this day, remains unidentified.

Stacy
I love that mystery.

Michael
Yeah, he has an Instagram account, but I’ve still never seen his face. DOOM was trying to pick up these different artists and elevate them. I don’t know if he had the cachet to make them stars, but that was his approach. He wanted to work with people he respected and push them forward, along with his own vision.

Ryan
We talk about diversification. DOOM is bringing in the homies to create something cool and classic. I love it. Take Phasers, for example. If you go to the Spotify playlist, and for those who haven’t heard the record yet, check it out—you’ll see 40 million other people love Phasers. Similarly, Next Levels is a standout track.

It’s been on one of my playlists for years, and I’d almost forgotten about it. Revisiting it within the context of the whole album makes me appreciate how good it is. For instance, the way he inserts a Rhodes piano—so soft and calming—against his jarring flow patterns is captivating.

I’d forgotten it had been in my playlist for ten years. Going back and listening to Take Me to Your Leader again, it all makes sense. These are songs that most people have heard and appreciated, but with time and distance, they sometimes get lost. Here we are today, celebrating this record.

Music
"King Geedorah, take me to your leader. Quick to claim that he's not no snake like me, me like they need to take a breather. He's been rhyming longer than Sigmund, the secrets have been on Saturday feature, please. The mix up came the wake."

Ryan
One thing we talked about off-camera: 2003, when this record came out. Let’s go back to that year. Everyone was bumping In Da Club. 50 Cent’s Get Rich or Die Tryin’ dominated hip-hop and rap wholesale. It was everywhere—you couldn’t escape it.

Then DOOM comes out with King Geedorah. It was so jarring in its placement but perfect for catching the market by surprise. He did what others weren’t doing and harkened back to the golden era of hip-hop. He walked that into the 2000s in a meaningful way but stayed uniquely original to himself.

Michael
Love that. And it doesn’t really fit anywhere in the 2000s. Honestly, I think it fits better today.

Ryan
Yeah.

Michael
It fits into today’s lo-fi production landscape. Back then, in the early 2000s, we were at the peak of overproduction. Everything had to be clean and polished. But now, we’ve circled back to that basement-style, lo-fi vibe. That’s what DOOM captured here in his own way.

Michael
It’s a complete album. Sure, there are a few songs that could be considered singles, but like you said, you have to consume it in context to fully understand the record.

Stacy
Yeah, you have to consume it in context. Maybe consume it with... other things in your body, too. I would suggest that.

Also, if you weren’t bumping in the club in 2003, I’m with you. I wasn’t either. Not everyone was. Some of us were jamming out to Avril Lavigne. Just saying—if that was you, I get it.

Stacy
But you don’t want to alienate anyone.

Ryan
I love it.

Stacy
All right, let’s get into the topic here. We touched on this a bit in season one when we were talking about Google search and whatnot. Let’s bring it back. Basically, we are not fans of Google. Let’s just say it politely. Actually, no—we’re sick of Google. Hot take, I know.

So, what led to this? Was there a moment where we said, "You know what? I’m over you." How did we get here?

Ryan
Well, Michael, you’re big into data analysis, and you often bring insights to light that might otherwise get ignored. We looked back at a calendar year’s performance. We’ve made a substantial investment in Google—primarily search across all its channels.

Despite that substantial investment, some great effort, and a lot of strategic thinking, our growth was minimal. I don’t want to share the exact numbers, but I’d suggest that the return was outsized by the time and money we put into it.

No marketer wants to live in a space of diminishing returns. We have to see compounding growth, and when growth is so marginal, it’s frustrating. If we keep doing the same thing, we’ll get the same results—or worse.

Over the past few months, we realized it was time to test and experiment elsewhere. That acknowledgment was critical. This was an outsized investment based on the return.

Michael
Yeah. And I don’t think the return was necessarily bad. It just wasn’t as good as we’d hoped. Part of that is because we were measuring month-to-month performance instead of lifetime value.

The monthly numbers were okay, but they didn’t add up to the kind of lifetime value we wanted. It wasn’t an investment that allowed us to scale.

Ryan
Right.

Michael
It’s not that we dislike Google—it’s that Google can’t be our only answer. We realized what we’d get from this channel wasn’t enough to scale. So, we asked ourselves: What can we do in addition to Google to create compounding growth?

Ryan
Exactly. And for the performance marketers listening, Google’s product line has changed fundamentally. Things like demand generation and Performance Max campaigns are new, while other tools have vanished.

Now, it’s more algorithm-driven. You input your assets, trust the system, and hope the results come in. Some of the fine-tuning we used to do as media buyers is no longer available.

That means we need to approach ad buying differently and explore other channels that still allow for testing and optimization. If Google isn’t a fit for us in the future, that’s okay—but we need to look elsewhere for opportunities that can be optimized to our liking.

Michael
Exactly. That’s a great point. We were spending so much time on Google, but their strategy is to make it turnkey. They leverage AI sophistication and say, "We’ll do the work for you."

But we were still acting as if we needed to manage it intensely. What we found, though, was whether we micromanaged campaigns or let them run, we got the same result.

So, why not take that effort and apply it somewhere else? Google has actually opened up the opportunity for marketers to step back and focus on other channels.

Ryan
Even though we joke about breaking up with Google, we might actually thank them. They’ve given us time back. Performance marketers can now lean into areas they couldn’t before because, for so long, executives just said, "Everyone’s on Google—let’s go there and figure out the rest later."

Now we know that’s a diminishing strategy. It’s time to explore other avenues.

Stacy
Okay, let’s level-set. What’s the current ratio of our Google investment versus other channels? And what’s your ideal ratio?

Ryan
Without giving exact numbers, I’d say we’re at about 90% of our budget invested in Google properties—primarily search, but also YouTube and display.

If you’re on a ROAS model, you’re targeting purchase-ready intent signals, and search delivers that quickly. Martech and SaaS companies like us live at the bottom of the funnel, so it’s no surprise we’ve been heavily focused on search.

Ryan
So, you know, it’s giving us what it will give us. But looking to the future, my goal by the end of the year is to see a 70/30 split—ideally, a 60/40 split in a perfect world. Now, that’s aggressive and a very hard goal to meet, but we can test small and scale in other channels.

Why can’t we walk over some investment elsewhere or, frankly, invest further in channels that are proving their worth and value? I’d like to get to 70/30. Michael, maybe you have your own vision of where you’d like to see us.

Michael
Yeah, it does feel like a big departure from where we are today. But in the spirit of this conversation, I’d say that doesn’t mean spending less on Google. It might just mean spending more in other places—or more time, right?

We’re talking about spend, but there’s also this juxtaposition of focus. Even if we were spending 70-80% on Google, could we spend only 50% of our focus on that single channel, instead of 100%? That way, we could open up both other paid opportunities and maybe organic opportunities that we’re not focused on today.

Ryan
Yeah. And again, we’re not here to bash Google. They’ve leaned into AI technology just like everyone else. For a company like us, looking to internationalize our ad buying experience and really localize things, they’re doing some great work on the back end.

They’re giving us opportunities as ad buyers and performance marketers to move quickly, get into markets that we’re not currently succeeding in. So they are providing some advantages. We just need to see if we can win in areas of the world where we haven’t before.

I’m stoked about what they’re building for us—it is a brighter future. But it’s one that distances itself from search a little bit in its results.

Stacy
So, I mean, obviously there’s some good value—if we’re spending about 90%, there’s got to be something good coming from it. But as we try to get to this—let’s just say 70/30—what channels are you most excited about? What’s out there that you’re pumped about and can’t wait to explore?

Ryan
Yeah, for me, there are all the traditional channels people are aware of, but I love the ability to take a full-funnel strategy to a new channel. For the longest time, you could kind of mix and match by top-of-funnel inventory, middle-of-funnel, and bottom-of-funnel.

But now, channels like YouTube—although a Google product—are allowing you to go from awareness through consideration into conversion. Similarly, X (formerly Twitter) is moving from awareness through consideration and conversion, offering a true ad strategy that allows you to unlock that potential.

Now, TikTok isn’t too far behind. Of course, Meta has some version of it, but I think most ad buyers will agree it’s more successful on the retargeting side of the business. We’re also inching into places like Reddit.

Everybody’s noticed that when you start querying things, Reddit is often one of the first results. We’re curious—can you actually bring people along for the ride and convert them inside that platform? We’re currently testing to see if it’s viable.

And then there are more industry-specific strategies—newsletters, co-marketing partnerships—that we’d like to invest in more. These aren’t your traditional big-logo, full-funnel conversion strategies.

Michael
Talk to us more about that top, mid, bottom funnel campaign. How is that different from the retargeting that Google and Meta offer today?

Ryan
Yeah. So, for the inventory allowed for display specifically on Google, I think a lot of buyers have questioned the quality. Sometimes it’s placements on a CNN sidebar or something like that, and those don’t always yield the best results, depending on what you’re selling.

What we’re finding is that there are specific conversion points within platforms like YouTube. For example, we can take a view-through conversion. Let’s say you watch one of our On the Record episodes—we can use that as part of the retargeting pool within that funnel.

We capture your attention with one of our episodes, gather your information, follow you around a bit, and then take you through different steps—different types of content like video essays, landing page content, whatever it might be.

It’s more sophisticated and personalized. Display ads have traditionally been a spray-and-pray approach—upload some stuff, hope for the best, and see what happens. But now, there’s a more curated customer journey within these funnels.

YouTube sellers are starting to realize that if we win on that strategy, we can scale our investments significantly.

Michael
So, you’d say the first couple of touchpoints are actually off of our platform, right? And that’s where they’re opening up this opportunity to retarget off-platform in a meaningful way.

Ryan
Yeah. We want to find places to influence our audience. It’s a little different than we thought it would be. We have to start at the very top—as much as it sometimes bothers me—clicks and impressions are where the whole journey starts, of course.

Where we get those clicks and impressions might be a little different than where they’ve been in the past.

Ryan
I think we can warm them up and nurture them faster when there’s an ecosystem that keeps them on a continual journey, as opposed to something fragmented. For example, if you saw a Leadpages ad on cnn.com, my ability as a marketer to connect that back to where I want you to be is a bit of a spray-and-pray approach, in my opinion.

But I think some of these newer opportunities are becoming better than ever before.

Michael
Yeah.

Stacy
Dumb it down for me. Way down. Let’s say I listen to the podcast, On the Record. What else would I be seeing, and where, in this ideal campaign you’re talking about?

Ryan
If you’re one of the thousands of people who watched our last season, you’ll get served ads with more middle-funnel content. For example, we have great social proof—customers saying, "Yeah, you’ve heard of Leadpages, but did you know this about them?"

It starts with social proof and transitions into spending more time with the brand. We know that the more time buyers spend with a brand, the greater their trust and likelihood to purchase. It’s exponential.

What I’m trying to do is give you a softer, more passive approach to show you that we’re the trusted partner for the thing you’re hiring us for—in this case, landing pages.

For us, in our full-funnel strategy, we start with exciting, entertaining moments like the On the Record podcast. Then, we move into product-focused content: What is the product, and what are the outcomes?

We share customer videos celebrating those outcomes, and by the time we reach the bottom of the funnel, we’re very data-driven. We show the statistical outputs of our platform and the results it provides to customers.

By the end of that journey, you’re left with confidence. You can answer: Can they do the job I need them to do? Are they right for us? In theory, conversion rates and trust increase significantly with this curated journey.

Stacy
And where am I seeing this? You mentioned top-of-funnel, but where do I see the social proof, the customer stories, and the data?

Ryan
The campaign I referenced would be primarily within YouTube. We have a very video-first strategy, much like this podcast. Video is a heavy investment for us.

But other channels also have ad inventory they create, sometimes on the fly, offering opportunities to catch users where they are at that moment.

Stacy
Thank you.

So, going back to diversification—we’ve talked about getting into other channels and aiming for a 70/30 split. But let’s shift and talk about control. When you’re 90/10 on Google, they have a lot of control. What are some of the consequences of that, beyond what we’ve already discussed?

Michael
Well, bringing it back to why we chose this record for this episode: Google is much like a major record label.

When you sign with a major label, they have a ton of creative control. They also have mechanisms to ensure they make their money back, including hidden fees. For example, Tribe Called Quest only made $15,000 on their first major label record, which was a huge success. But because their contract was so unfair, they barely saw any profit.

Google operates similarly. They have great mechanics to capture more of the customer value that we provide to the end user. They help us acquire those users, but we have to pay more and more for the privilege.

What diversification does is help us find channels that are more like indie labels—where we can keep 50% or more of that value. Indie channels may not have the reach of Google, which owns the world of search, but they allow us to save on acquisition costs and keep more of the customer value we create.

Michael
DOOM even owned one of his own labels, which meant he kept up to 80% of his earnings. If he had signed to a major label, he might have reached a larger audience, but his take-home would have been significantly less.

The same is true for us. Diversification allows us to find smaller channels where we have flexibility and control, even if they don’t have Google’s reach.

Ryan
100%. When we talk about breaking up with Google, are we really doing it? The answer is no. We’re still in this together. Google believes that our success is their success.

Now, Google is so massive that they don’t need our success to be their success—let’s be honest. But for a smaller business like ours, that personal experience and partnership mean a lot. It builds trust.

Michael, you and I have talked about this—there’s even potential for us to invest more in Google based on these conversations. They’ve earned our trust, and if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. But we’re giving ourselves the best shot.

Michael
Yeah. It’s also important to understand that with other channels, there’s often a ceiling. With Google, you can spend as much as you want, but smaller channels have limits on audience size and inventory.

That’s where diversification really comes in. There isn’t just one more channel we need—there are several.

Michael
There’s probably five.

Ryan
That’s a really good point, which does make it more complicated for performance marketers. Instead of managing five campaigns, now you’re managing 15 or 20. That adds complexity.

But I believe, and I think Michael shares this view, that the way of the future is clear—you can’t win on a singular entity like Google or any other platform. You have to be creative and willing to explore elsewhere.

If we look at user behavior, 84% of search is done on Google today. That’s a huge number—billions and billions of queries. But we’re seeing others inch in. For instance, ChatGPT now owns about 4% of the search market share.

Some might say, "4%? Who cares?" But that didn’t exist a few years ago. That number will continue to grow. Change is happening, whether we or Google like it. We have to stay ahead of the curve.

Stacy
It’s kind of like holiday shopping. I could buy all my gifts on Amazon—there’s no ceiling. I can get whatever I want.

But if I go to a boutique store down the street, I might not have as many options. However, if I need something in a specific color or style, I have someone there to help me. They might even deliver it to my doorstep tomorrow.

With Amazon, you’re stuck on calls or chatting with a bot—it’s not personal. The boutique store offers fewer options, but my money might go further, and the quality is probably better.

Michael
Yeah, probably higher quality, too.

Ryan
I like that analogy.

Stacy
Another thing to think about with Google—or any platform—when you’re so reliant on one or two entities, what happens when they’re no longer there?

We’re starting to see this play out with lawsuits and antitrust actions. Back in 2020, when the lawsuit was filed, I don’t think anyone believed it would lead to major changes. But now, here we are. People are asking, "What’s the future of Google Chrome? What’s the future of Google Ads?"

Michael
Google has been dealing with lawsuits for a decade and a half. They’re very good at navigating the implications.

Right now, it feels more like a public relations exercise. Europe has been punishing Google and Amazon a lot recently, but not much has actually changed. Things move quickly, but they also take longer than we think.

Ryan
No question. To wind this discussion down, let’s go back to King Geedorah’s record.

One of the things DOOM did, by staying so close to his audience and knowing what they wanted, was create a lot of resiliency. Wherever DOOM showed up—under any pseudonym—people followed.

Similarly, our ability to diversify creates a more resilient customer base. It builds a general awareness that can travel and transcend trends over time.

What if your brand were trend-proof because you existed in so many places and your customers were always engaging with you? DOOM showed us that it’s possible to create a brand that sustains for decades. As marketers, we need to aim for the same.

Stacy
Be like DOOM.

Ryan
Yeah, think like DOOM. That’s the takeaway.

Stacy
All right. That wraps up the episode.

We’ve learned that diversification is important—shifting to a 70/30 model. We’ve talked about Google’s control and how we might find better returns on other platforms with less oversight.

We’ve also discussed how diversification allows for more creativity in branding and messaging. And finally: Be like DOOM. I think that sums it up!

Otr Cta

Get The Latest Marketing Insights With a Musical Twist

Subscribe to On the Record, the hard-hitting podcast that combines valuable marketing insights with classic music with surprising results.

Share this post:
Leadpages Team
By The Leadpages Team
Otr  S2 E1 Og
squiggle seperator

Related Content

squiggle seperator
Try it free for 14 days

Curious about Leadpages?

Create web pages, explore our integrations, and see if we're the right fit for your business.