Top Takeaways
If you’re short on time, here are a few golden nuggets from our conversation and the resources mentioned.
- Make your customer the hero of the story. Focus on your customers emotions and needs, instead of their basic demographics.
- Ask the right questions. Engage with your customers, and ask questions to learn how you can best speak to the challenges they face and the solutions they're seeking.
- Best practices vs. research. Following best practices can be helpful, but it's less about following best practices and more about doing the right kind of research.
- Emotions are everything. Emotional targeting brings you back to the basics: what is the pain you're actually trying to solve, what is the solution that you're trying to offer, and why will they buy this solution from you?
Resources Mentioned
Get to know Talia
Bob: Talia, it is so good to have you on this episode of The Lead Generation. Thanks so much for jumping on.
Talia: Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited for this.
Bob: I'm excited in part because we obviously have a project that we're working on together that we'll be talking about it in a couple minutes, but also because you are someone who knows a ton about conversion rate optimization. I think with us being a landing page software company and website building company, that's going to be a big deal for our listeners. Before we get into that though, I'd love for you to just give us a short idea of how the lives of your clients and customers are transformed by what you and GetUplift.co does.
Talia: That's a great question. There's two sides of the impact. One of the sides is the obvious side, so I increase conversions. I help my clients and my students optimize their websites, their funnels, they get higher conversions. We have people who have 10 times their revenue using our services, or even using the course and the program that we've put them through.
The other part of it, which I think is probably even more important, is that we help companies really get to know their customer and scale. The type of tests that we run at Get Uplift are tests that really get into the depth of who our customer is, what motivates them, their emotions, their psychology. It doesn't just increase one KPI and get you some more signups or more downloads, but it helps inform the entire company exactly who your customer is, what words you should be using, how you should be speaking to them, how you should be designing, how your retention program should look like. Everything comes around that research and really helps everyone in the business grow and understand their people more.
Bob: That's excellent. I know that we're going to be talking a lot more than just the basic best practices of landing pages and so forth, and I love the holistic approach that you're taking. You weren't always a conversion rate optimizer. I'd love to get to know a little bit about how you got started several years back into the conversion rate optimization field.
Talia: It's actually quite funny because I was doing conversion optimization before I knew I was doing conversion optimization. As you mentioned, I wasn't doing it in the past. I was actually working in a social media company, great agency. I was managing the entire team and we were doing some really cool things. This was I want to say maybe 10 years ago, probably longer, I feel old saying that, but it was back in the time when people really cared about likes, engagement, and just getting comments on their Facebook posts.
I recall sitting in meetings with all sorts of companies and clients and asking them what was the impact, are you tracking this in Google Analytics. That was when people would say why would we track social media in Google Analytics, like what, no we can't see anything, we don't know what ... I mean, yeah there's likes, there's comments, great.
It would really drive me crazy. I'd be really interested in finding out what kind of impact we actually have on a business. So, I started playing around with things, because essentially what we would do is run ads on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, LinkedIn. We put together a landing page that, back when it was FBML. Was that the XFBML? I can't remember, it was so long ago. We put together the landing pages on Facebook and everything. I started just randomly changing things in the ads and on the landing pages just to see if there's any impact. It was with CTR at first, and then when companies said, oh we don't really track things, I'd just volunteer and say let me just set up a few things in Google Analytics for you so I can see.
That was the beginning of it. Then essentially I started Googling and looking for ideas. I suddenly learned there was this entire field that was just getting started. I think there were like two or three companies out that they were actually calling themselves conversion rate optimizers. I started following them and seeing what they were doing. I fell in love with it. It was all I cared about. That's actually why immediately after I left the social media company I started my own conversion optimization agency with two partners. It was a really interesting process to understand that I was actually doing that before I even knew what it was called.
Why split testing is over-rated compared to a different optimization tactic
Bob: Now at Get Uplift you are working with clients to both run tests and help them strategize and also create some course material for people to do this on their own, which is good. Not everybody has the opportunity to get enough traffic for testing the way that you like to test. One question I have for you is as people do their own testing for conversion rate optimization, some of our members have a ton of traffic and some of them they might get a couple thousand visitors a month or so. Tell us a little bit about when you set up tests versus when you rely on some best practices to move forward with optimization.
Talia: Sure. There's a few things I want to mention within this question. I guess first is that traffic is important, but probably even more important is the amount of conversions you have per month. Some companies can have thousands and thousands of visits a month with almost no conversions, and some companies can have as little as a thousand visitors a month, but over 300 and 400 conversions. When I'm setting out to test something, I'm also going to look at the amount of conversions that you have per month. Because if you have less than 300, 400 conversions per month, it's not really worth your time A/B testing. It's going to take months and months to get to any significance and understand the results, so I usually recommend against it.
However, conversion optimization isn't just about A/B testing. You mentioned best practices in your question. I'm the anti-A/B testing leader in this thing. I really don't like the term and I really think I try to shy away from it as much as also. Because when you hear the term best practices, what it reminds me and many of the people that I speak to is those articles that say how to increase your conversions by 1000% by just doing one thing. They normally focus on tactics. I love to focus on strategy, and most importantly, research.
There are many different things that you will be able to find out during meaningful research that you do about your website, your data, and of course your customers, and be able to implement changes immediately without testing them. Of course, it would be great if you could test them, but in reality we can't all test everything. Even the biggest companies with the most traffic don't test everything. When you're research based and you've done enough research, there are many changes you can make that will increase your conversions just by making the change without testing.
It's less about following best practices and more about doing the right kind of research, which any company, any size, with any budget can do in order to gain some insights and then make the change and hopefully optimize your landing pages.
Bob: I love that.
Why research matters most for increasing conversions
Bob: One of the things I'd love to talk about next is that research. What kinds of things should people be digging into so that they can geek out about it? Because as you mentioned, you can always change colors of a page, you can always change the location of your CTA buttons and so forth. When you're using landing page builders like Leadpages, we already bake a lot of those simple best practices in place so you don't even have to really worry about it. Really, what's the research step that people can take? I know there's a lot that you and the folks who Get Uplift do, but let's talk maybe about two or three things that any size company can do to research in order to optimize their conversions.
Talia: Definitely. Just to take this a step back, I'll explain why this research matters and how it really helps you. There are thousands of companies competing for the attention of your prospect. It doesn't have to be the specific competitor of yours. It's anyone who's online who has just got a video of cats. They're competing with the attention of your prospect. In order to stand out, you really have to know who your customer is, who your prospect is, and how to grab their attention.
Doing this research helps you understand who the person is behind the screen. I'm not talking about the geographical location, their age, the browsers they're using, or how many times have visited your site. I'm talking about the emotional triggers that guide their decision making. Once you understand their psyche, their intent, their desires, the things that wake them up at three o'clock in the morning, drive them nuts, it's so much easier to choose the right copy for your page, to choose the right colors, the right call to action button and everything. The importance of this research is really diving into meaningful insights about your prospects so that you can choose the right words and colors and images for them.
That's just a quick intro about why this research matters because the things that you can do are so simple. Some of you might actually be doing them already, but maybe not with the same intention that I just mentioned.
Ask the right kinds of questions in visitor and customer surveys
Number one is doing a survey on your website. Now this can be a visitor survey, or it can be your own customer survey or client survey, so you're reaching out to people who have already purchased from you, who are already your clients. Both work and I normally do both. What you're actually trying to figure out is for the pain you're solving for people, what is the biggest thing that motivates them to use your product. It's not about your solution.
It's not about asking, "Hey do you like this feature, or what feature is your favorite, or which features should we get rid of, or what you think about pricing?" It's leaning away from the solution based, product based questions that most companies are asking about, like what do you think about us, what do you think of our website, what do you think of our product, and leaning more into more emotion based questions about what led them to your website, what is driving them nuts, what is the pain they're trying to solve, how have they been trying to solve it until now, and if you took the product away what would be the one thing they miss the most. Really trying to dig deeper into those intent, into their emotional state, and understanding what motivates them to buy, what sways and persuades their decision making process.
Surveys are my go-to. I have multiple questions that I love to ask. As I said, one of them is if I took the product away from you tomorrow, what would you miss the most. Most companies think people are going to say this feature or that feature, but you will be overwhelmed with the responses that you get of how more in depth they are of how the product actually solves different problems for them. There's really cool questions that you can ask.
Get inside the minds of your audience with these 3 methods
We also have customer interviews that you can do, which I think are super important. I don't think enough people talk to the customers and actually hear them, look at them over Zoom call or whatever you're using, Skype, just to see their faces, see their expressions, to hear the words they're using to describe you and the solution that you're selling is super important.
The other thing you can do is start using heat maps for analyzing eye tracking.
Competitor research is also a big thing. When I say competitor research, I don't mean looking at what type of features this company has, what their pricing is, and comparing yourself in terms of the offer. But comparing what people are saying about your competitors. What are they complaining about? What's annoying them? What are the reviews that they are leaving? What are the testimonials about? These are people that should be buying from you and they're buying from your competitor. If you can understand what really annoys them, maybe that's something that you can highlight on your landing page.
There are many different things that you can do just by looking at your competitor's websites and analyzing their different reviews and testimonials. There's many other things, but those are the first things that pop into my mind right now.
Discover marketing-adjacent characteristics about your ideal customers
Bob: Yeah, those are all really excellent. I know people are going to want to pause and rewind and listen to that again, and I'll have show notes obviously with these questions too, but this is really phenomenal. I want to highlight this customer interview situation just from our conversation right now and see where it goes. Right now, those of you listening, you can't see Talia, but I can see Talia as we're doing this on Zoom. She has a Hogwarts Alumni shirt that's amazing and she has a couple of Fun Pop characters in the background. Just this whole setup gives me some insight as to what she is into from her own hobbies or her own personal approach to what she enjoys.
Let's say, Talia that you are interviewing yourself on camera like this and you notice this about maybe two or three of your customers that they had similar sorts of setup. What would you then use that kind of information for when it comes to then talking to future customers on your site?
Talia: This is such a cool question. Just yesterday I got an email from a colleague who runs a really cool startup company. He heard that I just had a baby. He wrote "Congratulations on X, Y, and Z." Then he said, "I'm sure you could use," and he just mentioned two different enchantments and magic tricks from Harry Potter because he knows how obsessed I am with Harry Potter. He was like, "Well, you could use Wingardium Leviosa."
That just captures you. It's like this guy knows me and I know that he's not trying to sell me on anything, but the fact that someone took the time to understand and know, not that I'm hiding it, but that I'm so into Harry Potter and took the time to check what spells would interest me is just a cool thing.
When I'm interviewing people, I'm looking to really understand what stands behind the things that they're saying. Sometimes when we say things, it's not really what we mean. It's the subconscious that is what's really interesting to us. When I notice one thing about a customer, it's cool, it's great, it's interesting, but I wouldn't necessarily use that specifically on my website.
However, if I'm interviewing a few different people, or I've done customer surveys and 150 or 200 people mentioned that they had something with Harry Potter and it's a thing, I would probably start using different techniques on my website to show people that I relate to them and that I know them.
To bring it down to the real thing, it would be if I understand that from customer surveys and from interviews, and again this is important because you want to see the same patterns appear in the various different research that you're doing, but if you notice that there's a certain pain that keeps coming up, that people keep bringing up, something that they were experiencing before they used your solution, maybe that is what you're going to be saying in your copy. You're going to say you've tried one, two, three, and four and it's just not working. We know that you've been to these websites. We know you've tried these products. We know you've done all this research on these blogs, but nothing has helped. We know because we've experienced this too.
Now, you can say all of that once you've spoken to enough people and you know that these are the websites they're visiting. These are the solutions they've tried before they got to you. You can show them that you understand them, you understand their pain, and you can relate to them. That pulls them in. It's a hook that makes them think "oh this person or this company really understands me, I should read on," and they can continue reading until they get to your offer. That is how do I use the research that I get. Does that make sense?
Bob: It does.
Why do people want what you have?
Bob: You've been hinting at this a bit and I want to dig a little bit deeper now about emotional targeting. You're not just using Google Analytics to see some basic stats on some things and what they're looking for. You're doing this research behind the scenes and overtly with your customers and perhaps website visitors. I think what you're really getting at is trying to get into this emotional targeting that you guys talk about so much. Can you share a bit about what emotional targeting is, how it might be different than a traditional approach, and what are some ways that we can embrace that for our conversion optimization as well?
Talia: Yeah, sure. Well, as I mentioned, after I quit the social media company I went and started my own conversion optimization agency. Boy, did I make some mistakes. When I started out, I was testing random stuff, following best practices, just trying to change different elements on the page, and it just wasn't getting the results that I wanted. When I went back to my drawing board, or as I like to say my Hufflepuff common room, I really understood that there was one meaningful thing that was missing with everything that I was doing. That was the person behind the screen.
I understood that conversion optimization isn't about changing elements on the page. It's about solving people's problems. If you can understand people's decision making process, why people make decisions, what's behind that decision, you can change everything on your website to really cater to that intent. When I did more research, I realized that the number one thing that impacts our decision making in life is emotion. In fact, there are multiple researchers and professors and all sorts of different research that has been done that proves that without emotion we can't make any decision. Emotion is entwined with every decision that we make in life. It's incredibly important with B2C, B2B, whatever we're doing, to understand the emotion, the underlying emotion that's motivating people to buy something.
That's actually when I started to see real results, when I started to analyze people's emotions and try and understand what's really challenging them, the pain that they're feeling, what really got them on their website, what was going on in their life that led them to search for a solution like this, what their intent is, where they are and use journey, and what they're feeling right now, and most importantly, what they desire to feel, what the desired outcome for them looks like emotionally. I started testing better and I started seeing amazing results because instead of changing elements on the page, I started changing entire strategies. I started changing all the copy, all the design.
It's not just because I suddenly did a redesign on a page. It's just that now when someone arrived on the page, they had a reason to read it. They understood that this company in front of them, understands them, connects with them, and may be able to offer that solution they’re looking for. My entire process is just about getting to know the person behind the screen, understanding that they're more than just a piece of data, and reaching out to them and helping them achieve their goals. It's just about stopping the question of hey, what's my goal, how can I reach my goal as a company, and just asking what is my client's goal, what is my customer's goal, and how can I help them achieve it. That is the essence behind it.
Focus on the emotional triggers of your audience, not their demographics
Bob: I think there's probably a question that's going through some early listeners minds right now, it certainly is for me. That is having this ideal customer in mind is great, but if I have a business where I think, at the moment, that it appeals to a much wider audience, that there's all kinds of different other people on the screen, personas. How do I choose which type of visitor, what emotional state they may be in? How do I determine which one to go with because I want to apply it to as many people as possible because I want to increase revenue as much as possible, and so I want to appeal to millions of people instead of just this singular visitor? Give me the smack down on why that thinking might not be helpful for business, if it is in fact incorrect, or you would adjust the thinking. How would you think differently about it?
Talia: I'll just say that if you're talking to everyone, you're essentially talking to no one. I love to say that because the question you just asked me is the question that comes up for most people. "Everyone is my target audience. Everyone can buy my product. I have a huge audience." Here's the interesting thing. When you talk about behavioral targeting, behavioral targeting is going to be segmenting your audience according to the traffic source they came from. If you're a little more advanced, then the different actions they take on your website, maybe the geographical location, the specific pages they visited. That's behavioral targeting. Funnily enough, when you do behavioral targeting, you actually are required to start creating different landing pages for many different types of traffic sources and many different types of campaigns.
The idea with emotional targeting is that a person who is 12 years old in London could essentially have the same emotional triggers as a 40 year old woman in Ohio. Because, it's not about where they're coming from, it's not about how old they are, it's not about what traffic source they came from. It's about their intent and their pain that they are feeling right now. If you go back and you think about why did I start my company, what are the problems, what are the pains that I'm actually trying to solve. Or if you don't have that and you can actually just speak to people and say, "Hey, what were you experiencing? What was going on in your life that made you choose this type of solution?" You will find out and you will see a pattern that normally it's down to one, two, three, five maybe challenges that people are experiencing, but people are experiencing the same thing.
What I'm saying it doesn't mean don't create different landing pages. I'm not saying don't create different copy for different people. That's important and it's good. But the basis of what you're doing should speak to everyone who is experiencing the same pain as yourself. Essentially, actually emotional targeting brings you down and back to the basics of what is the pain you're actually trying to solve, what is the solution that you're here to offer.
Later on, you can of course start segmenting and saying, okay, people who are at the beginning of the user journey. I like to categorize people according to their stage of awareness. This could be people who are completely unaware that they have a problem to people who are completely aware, searching for a solution, and just in the midst of trying to define which solution.
In your case, in Leadpages, they may be considering Leadpages, Unbounce, or another option. Those are people who are most aware, or product aware, who are trying to figure out what product it is for them. Some people don't even know they need a landing page builder. Some people are still trying to do it by themselves and trying to craft something on WordPress, or they're still trying to hire someone and spend thousands of dollars to just get a landing page up. Those people are different. That's when I would change my language.
For people who don't even know they have a problem, I'd use copy that talks about the pain that they're experiencing, how much money they're spending, the time that they're spending in front of the screen trying to become designers versus you could just sign up to Leadpages and have all of that in your hands. Versus people who are in the evaluation process of okay which company should I choose, which product really works for me, and then I would focus on, hey, here are the different features that we have, here's the different features that we believe can help you. That's my way of looking at it. It doesn't mean you can't segment according to the different types and millions of people that you have, but it's easier than what we're making it.
Bob: Absolutely. I think there's probably two or three things I want to pull out of this real quick. One is that when you do have multiple groups of people that you might be going after, you create different landing pages for those campaigns. You're not sending everybody to the same thing, if you have the luxury of making five pages. Of course, you start with one, you duplicate it. I love what you're saying here start with the emotional centrality of what's common. That becomes your benchmark and base point. Then as you have the time and the ability to check out what traffic sources, and ad copy, and awareness stages they're in, et cetera, then you have different versions of that. That's one thing I think that's really good.
The real reason why you shouldn’t talk about your competitors
Bob: Another thing I wanted to ask more about is you mentioned Leadpages as an example, and there's obviously people on the call who have competitors. When do you talk about your competitors by name versus saying that there are other people you could go with you? You often hear it say as the other guys do this, or the other companies do this. Do you have any sense of when you are working through this higher levels of optimization and when do you talk about competitors directly versus a little bit more abstract?
Talia: Generally, I think there is no need to talk about your competitors. Not because I'm worried about talking about them, but when you make it about the competitors it's essentially the same as making it about yourself. Your name, or another name, or any company, they don't make it ... If you look at Coca Cola and Pepsi for example, they don't talk about their own name. They don't mention Pepsi ever. They never mention Coca-Cola. I know these are huge brands, but the essence of their marketing is making it about the customer. That's actually the number one pillar of emotional targeting.
It's taking the conversation away from you and how amazing you are, and how great you are, and what features you have, and why you're better, and you've got better pricing, and better solutions, and AI, and machine learning, and all the buzzwords that are better from your competitor, taking a stance on that, putting that aside for a moment and making it about them. Which means when you understand what they're lacking, it's easier to mention that on the page.
As an example, there are a gazillion task management platforms. I've never seen such a crowded space in my life. We have Slack, and Monday, and Asana, and Trello, and Basecamp, and the list goes on and on and on. But, there are a couple of companies that stand out.
If you look at their marketing, if you look at how they market themselves, it's nothing to do with the amount of budgets that they have. It's nothing to do with if their product is better or not. It's about how they position themselves. They position themselves as problem solvers. Slack talks about reducing the amount of meetings that you have. Basecamp talks about the whole idea of just removing all the pressure that you have on your life. Monday talks about having a great work/life balance.
It's not about the competitor. No one ever mentioned "Oh we know Slack has this feature, but we have this." You'll never hear that. It's always about how they're solving a problem. That's not to say you shouldn't talk about your competitors, because sometimes those are the biggest competing words in your ads and you have to do something, but even then you want to make sure that you're making it about the customer. You are not the hero of the story, your customer is. That's essential to remember and to keep reminding yourself.
Bob: Awesome.
Go deeper into CRO with Talia’s new landing page guide
Bob: I want to ask you a softball question as we start to wrap up. That is you have been working on, behind the scenes, for the last bit of time, you and your buddy Shanelle Mullin have been creating a landing page guide that goes even deeper into these conversion rate optimization strategies. I'm excited that it is coming out. I'm excited that we've been able to partner with you about it. Tell us a little bit about why you wanted to make this landing page guide and maybe one of your favorite tips from it that people can look forward to.
Talia: I decided to make the landing page guide because I figured that most guides out there are pretty much the same. They include a few best practices. They're out there for SEO reasons, which is great. I'm sure they're ranking really well. But, I feel like a lot of information is missing, particularly about creating a landing page and the research that comes with it.
Our guide is divided into nine chapters. The majority of it is about how to research your customers and how to actually build a landing page that caters to their emotions, their level of awareness, and use the right words that they need. Sure, there's information there about call to action buttons. There's things there about how to optimize your web forms, SEO, traffic, but the basis of it all comes from my experience that when I started out I really hated creating landing pages. I know that's a terrible thing to admit to when you are conversion optimizer, but I just hated creating landing pages.
I always felt like I put in so much effort, so much time, and I'd never get the results that I wanted. Once I actually learned how to create and craft and optimize landing pages in a better way, I really feel that it needs to be shared. I love sharing and teaching as much as I can, so the majority of that guide is full of the exact steps that I use to research an audience, to identify what's the right headline, what are the right bullet points they should be using, what the image should look like and everything around it based on your customer.
Bob: You partnered with Shanelle Mullin. Why was she such a good coauthor to have? Tell us a little bit about her and what she brings to the table.
Talia: Well, Shanelle is awesome. Just as a great friend. She's been in the conversion space for a very long time. She worked as the Head of Content at Conversion XL, which is a fantastic conversion optimization agency. She now works for Shopify. She does conversion optimization for them. She also works on all the content there and she optimizes the content for conversions. She's been in the space for a very long time. She knows a lot. Combined with my research and all the A/B testing that I've done, it was just cool team up and we brought all of our know-how to this guide together.
Bob: Excellent. We're pleased here at Leadpages to partner with you on that guide, so we're going to make sure that you get access to it. How much do people have to pay for that guide?
Talia: What? Nothing. It's free.
Bob: Again, softball question. It is free. Absolutely free download for you to use. This is something that we really want to see more people benefit from.
Get the A-Z Guide to Landing Pages from Talia Wolf and Shanelle Mullin.
Uncover more conversion opportunities with heatmaps
Bob: Another partner on this project is Hotjar. You mentioned earlier, I wanted to get back to one of the last questions, you mentioned this idea of eye tracking and trying to measure heat maps and so forth. That gets into some nerdy stuff that people might've been pushing away just because it seems intimidating, but really Hotjar and companies like them make it a little bit easier. Tell us, just a quick rundown of why using a tool like that can be so helpful in this process.
Talia: Heat maps are an amazing tool when they're used correctly. There was a hype about heat maps for a very long time, but I felt like they were being used in isolation in the wrong way. But, just to give you an idea, heat maps show you how people are engaging on your website. You could put a heat map on your landing page and you could see where people are clicking on, where they're scrolling to, how much time they spend on the page, and all sorts of really cool things. Even how they move their mouse on your page. That's really cool stuff. You can actually understand what needs to be fixed.
The most basic, basic example would be that you might log into your heat map and notice that most of the people are clicking on an unclickable item, that something looks like a button on your page and people are clicking on it all the time.
So, you would understand two things. One, it looks like a button. I should change this probably. Number two, this is information that people must be really interested in. Maybe I should move this content above the fold. Maybe this needs a whole page of its own. It's a great tool to investigate and see how people understand what you have to offer and how they use your landing page.
However, I do want to say that when you use the heat map, and we get into this in the guide, you have to come with specific questions. The way I like to do it is I like to look at Google Analytics. I come up with a few ideas and mainly questions of why is this happening, what's going on here, what does this mean, what does that mean? Then I would use a heat map to investigate it. I don't just put a heat map on my landing page and say hey let's see what happens, but I come with a specific question. Because otherwise interpretation is open and you will get all sorts of conclusions that might not really be there. It's a process, which again we mention in the guide, but if you haven't played around with heat maps yet, why on earth not, start now.
Bob: Awesome. This has really been fascinating. I know I myself have been able to learn a lot from you today, Talia, and I know our listeners have as well. Where can people connect with you more besides the guide to get to know a little bit more about what Get Uplift does?
Talia: GetUplift.co is our website. We have a blog there, weekly workshops, and all great stuff and resources that you can download for free. You can also follow me on Twitter, which is @TaliaGW.
Bob: Excellent. Talia, thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode of The Lead Generation.
Talia: Thank you so much for having me. This was great fun.
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