[Podcast] How to Develop High Growth Teams for High Growth Companies (With Thomas Knoll)

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Ryan

All right. Today’s conversation focuses on a topic that’s near and dear to marketers and professionals alike—high-growth development for high-performing teams. We’re joined by the impeccable, the wonderful Thomas Knoll, who has built an incredible background in doing just that—developing high-growth people within high-growth businesses.

Thomas, welcome to On the Record. Tell us a little about yourself. Where’d you come from? How’d you get here today?

Thomas

I drove.

Ryan

That’s very literal.

Thomas

Thank you. It was slippery on the roads, but I made it.

How did I get here? I guess going backward, yeah. I had a chance to work with the team here. I’ve known Michael for—

Michael

Over a decade.

Thomas

Yeah, 12 years or so. We met in Vegas, where, in a previous life, I was the community architect at Zappos. That was kind of the peak of my job career. I’d been doing online community building since ‘96, worked at a bunch of startups, and Zappos was a real turning point.

Once I got there, I started making companies that didn’t exist—because I was stupid. I was just like, Hey, I need this product. It doesn’t exist. I guess you just go build one.

Ryan

Did you do that inside Zappos?

Thomas

No, after Zappos.

After Zappos, we started building a downtown entrepreneur community, and I launched a company called Lean Truck. That was way back when, and honestly, I don’t even know which came first, but we were early competitors with Leadpages at the time. Lean Truck was all about socially activated landing pages—basically building a network of subscribers pre-launch. That was the main focus.

We sold that company, and then I started Clip PR, which was a digital notebook that tracked engagement with content. It would notify you whenever there were new comments, likes, mentions, or shares on the content you’d clipped.

Funny thing was, one tiny feature of the entire product was the only thing customers wanted to pay for. So we pivoted into just that, and that became Prime Loop—retargeting through short URLs. The idea was, instead of forcing people to your landing page, you could send them anywhere and still capture them in your retargeting campaigns. At the time, everyone was obsessed with shove them to your page, shove them to your page.

Ryan

Still do.

Thomas

Yeah. So that was fun. We sold that one too, and that’s when I realized that through all of this, my favorite part had been mentoring other founders.

I had been mentoring through 500 Startups and other entrepreneur communities the whole time, and after selling my second company, I knew that was what I wanted to do full-time—helping other leaders grow.

RyanSo you’ve been on the incubator side, had multiple exits, and worked at one of the preeminent companies in the space.

Thomas

Yeah, a few years ago now.

Ryan

I’ll put the feather in the hat for you since you’re so humble. Everyone listening or watching knows the Zappos story to some extent. Anything from your time there that really shaped your approach?

Thomas

Oh man. How long do we have?

Ryan

Three minutes. How about that?

Thomas

Three minutes or less. Okay.

I think a couple of things really stood out. Zappos was famous for Delivering Happiness, right? Happiness, happiness, happiness. But unfortunately, that story ended with the loss of Tony Hsieh.

I can’t speak for him, obviously, but I see this in a lot of people—when you try to grasp happiness itself, it always just slips away. The real value is in the pursuit of happiness. Enjoying the journey itself is where all the benefit is.

That was something really special within Zappos. There was a real focus on encouraging people to pursue what they wanted, to create the future they wanted. If a job didn’t exist? Make it up. That mindset was really powerful.

Ryan

Yeah, and now you’re helping leaders—like my right-hand guy, Michael Sacca, and even myself—unlock our next phase of growth through executive coaching. And as I like to call it, executive psychiatry.

What’s your approach to developing a mindset that achieves high growth?

Thomas

For me, the key is this—if a business wants to be a high-growth company, that requires a lot of change, very quickly. Growing pains, constant adaptation—it’s hard.

If that’s the goal, then the people inside that company need to be growing just as fast. Individually and as a team, they have to be adaptive, resilient, and open to change.

If we’re not willing to invest in the growth of individual team members, I don’t know how anyone can expect to build a high-growth company.

Ryan

Yeah, so well said. We’re going to unpack all of that and more. But first, let’s take a trip back to 1992 for a record.

Ryan

This podcast audience might know Extreme from More Than Words, the popular ‘80s ballad, but today we’re looking at Three Sides to Every Story.

You come with a passion for this record because it closely aligns with your theory, your belief, and your principles as a whole. Why does this matter to the topic we're talking about today—high-growth people and high-growth teams?

Thomas

Yeah, I mean, look, there are some good songs on there, and you can get your head bopping a little bit to those. But to me, the coolest part is right in the title. They really dig into that concept across the album, showing how there are always different sides to the same events.

At the time, there were a lot of political issues and conflicts happening in the world, and they touch on that. But what I love about this album is that every single person I meet—every situation I see—there are always three sides to the story.

We want the simplicity of us versus them, or this decision versus that decision. We crave that clarity. But in reality, it's rarely that simple. There's not a clean right or wrong. There’s this is what’s going on for me, this is what’s going on for you, and then there’s the truth—which almost always lives outside of any one individual perspective.

So I’m obsessed with curiosity. How much do we really understand about the decisions we’re facing or the conversations we need to have? How confident are we that we actually know what’s going on for the other person before we start telling them what they should do?

If instead, we start with Tell me more. Why do you feel this way? Why do you think this is the right path?—it’s fascinating what happens when you get curious and look for all three sides of the story.

Ryan

I love that. We'll talk much more about curiosity.

Michael, you and I are both music heads, so we dug into this record. Some things stood out, some things we enjoyed, and maybe some things we didn’t. Take us through Extreme – Three Sides to Every Story—what you thought, what you liked, and maybe what didn’t land for you.

Michael

So when I asked Thomas to join us, I said, You get to pick the record.

Ryan

Right.

Michael

Instantly, without hesitation, he said Extreme – Three Sides to Every Story. And I was like… okay.

Thomas

It's my favorite record.

Michael

No, no, what’s your favorite song on it?

Thomas

Oh, my favorite song isn’t even on that record.

Michael

But as a whole, I think it was better than I expected. Then again, I didn’t know exactly what I expected. I actually thought it was an ‘80s record, but it was released in ‘92.

I found it really consistent. There are definitely some interesting threads—like you can tell they were trying to expand beyond More Than Words. They probably did get boxed into that song, but this record feels like they were pushing back. It’s almost as if they were saying, We are more than “More Than Words.” We are more than a ballad band. We have opinions.

What they took on with Three Sides to Every Story, in the context of global conflicts and different perspectives, is heroic. These were complicated issues, and they were trying to boil them down into 3–5 minute songs.

Musically? Probably not my favorite. I might not revisit it again. But I think, when you look at what they were trying to achieve, there's a lot to take away.

Ryan

Yeah, and what an interesting transition. I went into it with no expectations, not knowing the record—no offense, Thomas—but just trying to pinpoint its place in music history.

It’s 1992. Grunge is thriving. And here comes a band coming out of the ‘80s, stepping into the ‘90s. You have to wonder what their identity was in that moment. So they turn up the distortion. They turn up the guitar—Spinal Tap to 11, if you will. It has a grunge element, but at the same time, it mirrors what was going on in the world.

The guitars stood out to me because they were consistent—they had an edge throughout the album. I think that created an interesting tone. Were they leaning into grunge? Or was it uniquely theirs? I want to give them credit and say it was uniquely theirs. The message was so charged that it couldn't have had a yacht rock backdrop. It needed to have teeth. It needed to have grit. And I’ll give Extreme a lot of credit for that.

What I found really interesting is that, even with those grungy, piercing guitars, they supplemented it with unexpected elements—strings, soft synths, even brass horns on Politicalamity.

Ryan

I thought it was unexpected but in a good way. After a few tracks that felt similar, they found ways to revitalize the listener’s ears with new instrumentation.

And then Seven Sundays—that one started to feel more like More Than Words. You have to imagine, after the massive success of that song, it would be hard not to lean into that again. And I thought they did a nice job with Seven Sundays. It had synth work paired with distorted guitars—

Thomas

Yeah.

Ryan

Probably unexpected for fans of their earlier work.

I want to honor Extreme for taking some bold swings. I, too, may not revisit this album, but there were moments I really enjoyed.

Thomas

What’s interesting to me is that the King Estate didn’t license Martin Luther King Jr.'s speeches for music very often. But they licensed them for Peacemaker Die on this record.

That’s really compelling. The fact that they got permission—that the King Estate wanted this message to be part of the record—says a lot about the album’s intention and integrity.

Ryan

That says more than words.

Thomas

Exactly.

Ryan

It was clearly important to them. They went to great lengths to share this message in a way that honored its source. The ultimate co-sign.

That’s a great little anecdote from the record. Now, transitioning from this album to our main discussion, you mentioned something earlier—one of my favorite words—curiosity.

Curiosity and its connection to happiness is such an important idea. I know Michael subscribes to this too. Take us through what curiosity means to you and how you integrate it when coaching leaders like us.

Thomas

Yeah, so it really comes from a secondary interest.

What I really want to see in the world is more empathy.

And to tie this back to AI—AI is here. It’s marching into the workforce. It’s going to take some jobs. I don’t know how many, but it’s going to take a lot of the work people do within companies.

I believe that the businesses with the best humans—the ones piloting and working alongside these tools—are going to have the biggest competitive advantage.

AI is the ultimate commoditization tool. It brings everyone to the same level.

If that’s true, then the businesses that have the best people are going to be the ones that win.

And that’s why I want to see significantly more empathy in the world. I think when you pursue directly something like happiness. And you're trying to grab on to happiness the second you're like trying to grab it, it's gone.

Ryan

Fleeting.

Thomas

Right? And I don't think you can make people be happier. I don't think you can make people more empathetic. You can't even teach empathy. You can demonstrate it, absolutely. But you can’t force people to be more empathetic, and you can’t really teach them how to be.

But I do believe you can teach curiosity. And I think it’s actually very easy to teach. You can push people to pursue curiosity at every step along the way. And the beauty of that is—the natural side effect of curiosity is empathy.

If you are truly being curious with the person across from you, it's impossible not to be empathetic. Because you’re actively trying to understand them. You’re engaged in wanting to see their side of the story.

That’s why I’m obsessed with curiosity. We can teach it. We can encourage it. We can push people to use it at every stage. And when they do, everything improves—the humanity rises, the empathy rises. And when that happens, the work we produce becomes more collaborative, more creative, more confident.

The compounding effects of curiosity make it one of the most valuable things we can pursue.

Ryan

Yeah, I love that. Michael, any additions or commentary from your perspective?

Michael

Well, we were actually talking about this over breakfast this morning. One example Thomas gave really stuck with me, and I think it’s such a simple shift that can make a huge difference in leadership.

So let’s say you’re having a one-on-one with someone on your team, and they bring up a conflict or an issue. Maybe they even disagree with a decision you’ve made. The default reaction for a lot of managers is to convince them—Here are three reasons why this decision makes sense.

But if you flip that into curiosity, the conversation changes completely.

Instead of convincing, you ask: Why do you feel that way? What are you seeing that I might not be? What’s your perspective on this? What do you think would happen if we went in this other direction?

When we take that approach all the way through a conversation, we often get a completely different outcome. Instead of being at odds, or someone just agreeing to agree, we actually learn from each other. And even if we don’t agree at the end, we have a deeper understanding of why.

If we lean into curiosity in those moments, instead of relying on hierarchy or authority, we can walk away with trust and empathy. And that’s a much stronger foundation for leadership.

Ryan

I love that—curiosity as the unlock for continuous learning. Whenever I’m interviewing a candidate, I try to drill into that more than anything else.

There are a lot of skills I can teach someone later. I’m sure you’ve taught many things as a leader, Thomas. But without that hunger—that innate ability to want more, to constantly evolve and learn—it’s really hard to push someone to grow.

I found it so interesting when you said curiosity can be coached. That goes against my assumption that people either have it or they don’t. So how do you actually go about coaching curiosity?

Thomas

This is going to sound ridiculous.

Ryan

I love that.

Thomas

Yeah.

Ryan

Please.

Thomas

If I want to teach someone to be curious, I just say, What if we ask questions?

Ryan

And that’s it?

Thomas

That’s it.

I mean, of course, there’s nuance. There’s an art to asking better questions. But the hardest thing about curiosity isn’t learning how to do it—it’s overcoming the things that block curiosity in the first place.

Because the reality is, when someone tells me I’ve made a bad decision, my first instinct isn’t curiosity. My first instinct is to get defensive. To feel judged. To assume they just don’t get it.

Those reactions are completely natural. But if, in that moment, I can pause and ask myself, Wait, do I actually understand what they mean?—that’s where curiosity kicks in.

So instead of reacting, I ask: What do you mean by that? Why do you think this isn’t the right path? What’s your concern?

When I lead with questions, it helps me let go of those gut reactions. It forces me to engage instead of assume. And every time I do that, the conversation opens up in a completely different way.

If someone’s angry, I don’t just dismiss them—I ask, Are you angry? What’s frustrating you? Maybe they’ll say, Yeah, I’m pissed. Or maybe they’ll say, I’m not angry, I’m just really passionate about this working. That’s a completely different conversation.

Curiosity keeps opening doors. It keeps deepening the conversation. And it’s so simple—it’s just asking questions.

Ryan

You’ve worked with some amazing companies. Have you ever run into leaders who resist this? Who push back on curiosity as a leadership tool?

Thomas

Honestly? Not really.

Ryan

Really?

Thomas

Yeah. I mean, how do you argue against What if you just asked questions?

Ryan

Fair point.

Thomas

Who’s going to get mad at that?

Ryan

Yeah. I think the best relationships—the strongest teams—are built on listening. The ability to ask instead of dictate is what builds trust. It deepens relationships. It makes people feel heard.

And that makes a huge difference in leadership.

Michael, how have you seen curiosity play out in your own leadership experience?

Michael

Well, I think we’re coming out of a phase of happiness management—where leaders were expected to make their teams happy.

For years, leadership advice was all about removing obstacles, solving problems, and making sure people were content. That was the goal of one-on-ones.

When I first stepped into leadership, every book I read, every article I came across, said the same thing: Your job is to make your employees happy.

But that approach was frustrating.

Partially because—I’ll be honest—I just wanted things my way. And that was wrong.

But also because it didn't seem like we were ever able to achieve that happiness marker. So we were always behind, and there was always this feeling of dissatisfaction because we hadn't reached the Mecca. It felt like we were constantly failing while trying to succeed. And in that pursuit, we started removing structures—goals, performance metrics, even hard conversations—because those didn’t make people happy.

Right? What makes people happy is ultimate comfort and zero accountability. And for a while, that’s what we were optimizing for. But I always found it frustrating. I felt like we were missing something.

It wasn’t until I started talking with Thomas that the lightbulb really went off. The pursuit of happiness felt wrong, frustrating, and unsuccessful. But the pursuit of curiosity—that was different. It actually led to similar desired outcomes but in a way that was more effective, more fulfilling, and more sustainable.

Because, in theory, happiness culture was built around empathy. It was an attempt to correct the old management structures that lacked it. But it became an overcorrection. And now, curiosity feels like the pendulum swinging back to a more balanced place.

It allows us to have hard conversations without being combative. It gives people room to challenge ideas while still feeling heard. It helps us create a workplace where people are fulfilled—not just comfortable.

Ryan

Yeah, and happiness can be a byproduct of a results-driven organization—one with goals, measurables, and accountability. But for a while, we were so focused on protecting employees’ feelings that we lost sight of performance.

People might have felt good, but did they feel good about the work they were doing? Did they feel good about the company they were working for? Were they even proud of the results they were producing?

I remember moments in my career where everything felt good—team morale was high, the perks were great—but I would sit in an all-hands meeting and realize… we’re not doing well as a company. And I’d start to wonder: Are we actually working on the right things?

You’d look around the room, and everyone was smiling. But… why? If we weren’t winning, what were we smiling about?

I think for those who were perceptive, it was clear—we were drifting. We weren’t setting strong enough goals. We weren’t measuring success in a meaningful way. And at the end of the day, this is capitalism. We are here to generate profit. Let’s not kid ourselves.

I think we did get away from that for a while, but now the pendulum is swinging back. We’re finding that balance again—treating people with empathy, fostering curiosity, and being active listeners—but still holding ourselves to a standard of performance. And maybe happiness will still be a result of the work, but now it’ll be earned through meaningful progress.

Michael

Yeah, and the key piece that was missing was fulfillment. People weren’t fulfilled—they were comfortable. And those two things are not the same.

When the organization was falling behind, people felt that. No amount of perks or forced positivity could change that reality. What actually made people fulfilled was seeing progress. When the company was moving forward, when they could see the impact of their work, that is what created real satisfaction.

And that was the shift we needed to make. People didn’t just want to feel good—they wanted to know they were doing good work. And that came from structure, accountability, and a clear mission.

I just didn’t have the words for it at the time.

Ryan

Yeah. And I think a lot of people listening or watching are seeking growth in their careers. But growth comes with those structures you’re talking about. And for a while, I think we wanted the growth, but we also wanted comfort at the same time. We wanted to have our cake and eat it too.

But now we’re finding a middle ground—where employees and businesses both benefit.

Michael

Yeah.

And Thomas, you mentioned AI bots earlier. It’s interesting because this album breaks things down into three parts—Mine, Yours, and The Truth. And one of the things people keep saying about AI is that it has the objective truth.

So… if that’s the case, why don’t AI bots run our companies?

Ryan

Thomas, why don’t they?

Thomas

Right.

I mean, if there’s a definitive, quantifiably correct answer to every decision, then why don’t we just appoint ChatGPT as the CEO of every company? Get the board together, ask it all the questions, and just do whatever it says.

Or… maybe that’s not how business actually works.

Maybe the sum of all knowledge and the biggest supercomputers in the world still can’t account for the human element. Maybe all of this only works when people are involved—when we’re creating, problem-solving, and making decisions together.

We’re coming out of an era where management structures were built for assembly line businesses—where you give people the tools, the tasks, and the metrics, and they just execute.

Then we took that same mindset and applied it to knowledge work. We structured everything. We created inputs and outputs. We measured every detail. And what did we get?

The Great Resignation. Quiet quitting. Now, Gallup just released a new study showing that over 70% of people are dissatisfied with their jobs.

But the difference now? They’re not quitting.

Before, people were dissatisfied and leaving. Now, they’re dissatisfied and just… staying. Because why bother? If every job is the same, what’s the point in leaving?

The solution isn’t to just make the machine work better. It’s to recognize that humans aren’t machines.

We need to take advantage of the work that AI can do for us. But that doesn’t mean humans become irrelevant. In fact, it makes our role even more important.

Because humans are the ones who build relationships, who grapple with hard decisions, who navigate the gray areas. AI can give us data, but it can’t tell us how to create a meaningful future together.

Look at the world today—there are conflicts where both sides believe they are right. Who’s right? Who’s wrong?

Somewhere in the middle, there are real people—hurting, struggling, trying to make sense of impossible situations. And it’s hard.

Now, bring that back to the workplace. Obviously, it’s not on the same scale, but the principle is the same.

We face hard decisions. We have conflicting priorities. We don’t always know what the right answer is.

And that’s where curiosity comes in. That’s where we ask each other the tough questions. That’s where we actually listen to what others have to say.

Because in the end, the best teams aren’t just about efficiency—they’re about connection. And that only happens when we commit to curiosity.

Ryan

I love that. I want to take a little pivot in the conversation because so much of what you’ve shared has likely inspired the listener or the viewer to say, I want some of this in my life. I want this in my organization. It’s great to hear about, but its practical application—that’s where you’re the expert, right?

I feel spoiled that Michael brought this into our organization. He came to me and said, Ryan, what do you think about executive coaching? He introduced it to Stacey and others in the organization, and now we have this open-door policy with you. These conversations are inspiring—eye-opening, even—and I could say a variety of things about them.

But how do we get organizations that aren’t like Leadpages—where Michael has brought this in—to invest in what you’ve shared with us over the last 20 or 30 minutes?

Thomas

Yeah, I have a very selfish and extremely biased answer.

Ryan

Oh, please.

Thomas

Right? One is—I love doing this work. So please, just reach out and say hi. I’d be happy to work with anyone who’s interested.

But also, I know I’m never going to be able to have as many clients as I want to give access to this kind of work. So, I think coaching in general—go grab it, go utilize it. But we’re also building a product called 11 to help crack that door open even wider.

It’s a tool designed to improve one-on-one conversations by capturing those acute moments—whether it’s confusion, frustration, or inspiration—and helping people share them in real time with the person they do one-on-ones with. But it does this in a non-disruptive, non-interruptive way.

When you save something to 11, it goes into what’s essentially an old-school mailbox. You won’t get interrupted by it—you’ll check it when you want to.

So, for example, you leave a meeting and realize, Hey, so-and-so kept getting cut off every time they tried to speak. We need to talk about making sure all voices are heard. Or maybe it’s 5:30 in the morning and you just had a big idea after a workout. Instead of messaging someone at that hour, you drop it into 11, and it’s there for later.

That’s something everyone can do—whether they use 11 or not. Start asking questions. Start capturing moments. That’s how change starts.

Ryan

I love that. Michael, I said this was a gift that you brought to us. What made it so important for you to provide that gift to your leadership team at Leadpages?

Michael

Yeah. I mean, I think one thing is—we all need an objective third party. Someone who can help us see things clearly.

Thomas

You mean the truth?

Ryan

Oh, here we go.

Thomas

Here we go.

Michael

What really resonated with me about coaching is the focus on working on yourself. That’s something that’s hard to do in a typical one-on-one meeting, because you’re talking to someone who—at the end of the day—has the power to fire you.

There’s a natural hierarchy that exists in those conversations. Even if you have a great manager, true vulnerability can be difficult. Some people do have managers who’ve built that kind of trust, but not everyone is so lucky.

And honestly, I know myself—I’m not always the warmest, fuzziest person. So, coaching helps us not just focus on the work, but on the individual.

Because when I become a better version of myself, when you become a better version of yourself, that impact trickles down into the entire organization. Every interaction we have—whether positive or negative—shapes our culture.

Coaching helps us pull some of these practices into the rest of the organization. It gives us a framework for balancing performance with human connection.

And I think I was looking for a real alternative to the “happiness management” mindset. I didn’t want something that would hurt performance, but I did want something that would keep people at the center.

I mean, we could just have one-on-ones with AI, right? It would tell us everything we did wrong that week. But I don’t know how effective that would be.

We know human interaction is important. So, the question becomes: How do we build a culture that’s both high-performing and deeply human?

Ryan

Yeah, I love that. And if an organization has the resources to invest in these areas, why wouldn’t they?

For me, personally, I sit between two conversations. I work with Thomas on self-development, and I work with Michael on moving the organization forward. That two-pronged approach is incredibly powerful. It gives both sides of a leader—the human side and the business side—a real outlet.

And if more organizations were willing to invest in this—if they saw the permeation of the benefits—they wouldn’t be so hesitant to hire someone like Thomas. They’d see that executive coaching doesn’t just create high-growth people—it creates high-growth businesses.

So, I’m exceptionally pleased that Michael introduced Thomas to our team. And now, Thomas, you’ve been officially recorded On the Record.

Thomas

Using the title again…

Ryan

I have to.

And of course, you brought us the most obscure album choice we’ve had so far.

ThomasT

hat’s what I do.

Ryan

But in all seriousness, I’m really grateful for this conversation. I think people listening or watching will walk away with real takeaways—things that make sense, things that will hopefully inspire action.

A lot of these discussions can feel abstract, but you’ve given us something tangible to hold onto—both for individuals and businesses alike. So, on behalf of everyone, I just want to say thank you.

Thomas

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Michael

I feel like we should wrap this up with one word.

Thomas

Oh no…

Ryan

This guy right here.

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