[Podcast] The Future of Design: Status Quo or YOLO? (With McLean Donnelly)

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Ryan

Branding might be more important than it's ever been, but how do we move businesses forward with design? And better yet, how do we teach the designers of tomorrow to move the businesses forward? Thankfully, Andy Warhol in the Velvet Underground taught us is priceless lessons along the way. Today we're going to dive into those topics and much more on this episode of On the Record.

Alright. Today we're thrilled to welcome McLean Donnelly who joins us from the University of Minnesota, currently running a program one of one in the country, I might add, teaching the design students of tomorrow how to apply user experience to design practice. McLean, welcome to On the Record.

McLean

Thank you for being here. Y'all excited to talk about it.

Ryan

We're going to do a lot of talking to my right, my man Michael Sacca CEO of Leadpages, and myself earlier coined head honcho of marketing at Lee pages Ryan Truax. And let's dive right into it. Gentlemen. I want to talk about consistency and design. And it's laddering up to brand. Michael, tell me a little bit about what you think design consistency means to a brand story.

Michael

I think it goes a little bit beyond I think too often we get caught in the brand book. We get caught in the typography, we get caught in the color palettes. I think what we see now, the brands that are winning, they're able to stretch out of that either on a campaign level, or or even like taking big swings yearly at a whole different look and feel.

There needs to be a thread. Yeah. And I think that's the hard part, is to find that thread. But I don't think the thread is as tight as it used to be and as it needs to be.

McLean

Absolutely. Yeah.

Ryan

Now I'm at Clayton. Maybe give me your. And you're fostering the development of the designer tomorrow. What does it look like and what are you telling students about design and its consistency?

McLean

Let's go with a question. So I'm a UX designer by trade. So I would say it's a little different from graphic design industrial design UX design architecture where you're coming from, some UX folks will say, you know, consistency. It's got to be the same pattern. You can't have like a different button on one site, and that helps the user.

So there's kind of a baseline consistency that I think is important. But I will say medium hot take this is Minnesota. So catch this. Keep it hot.

Consistency can be the enemy of progress. Yeah. Yes. And like what you all are doing with your brand with this, if you aren't pushing boundaries, trying new things, your brand is not going to extend. So I think it's a nice balance between knowing where users are at, but also pushing the brand forward to meet those new users of tomorrow.

Ryan

Yeah, and that's the thing today and today. The title of this episode is The Future of Design. What we're saying is the future of design is two things. It's either status quo or YOLO. We're going to explore, you know, the Velvet Underground's record and kind of this traditional design system in which we're able to say, well, that works.

Tried and true, but does it work into the future? Does the buyer of tomorrow get informed by that? And so what do you think when you look off around the corner, like what might inform a purchase decision through design? Are we looking at things that have always worked? Are we a strain from those things?

Michael

I think there's always a reference to the past. There's things that like worked, but it doesn't mean that we need to find one thing and stick to it. It's fair. And and I think we're always referencing classic design. I think this cover is is a great example of that. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that if you put a banana on every single cover, people are going to care, right?

It worked because of the context of that time, which we'll get into. But that that doesn't mean that this exact font, this treatment, this, this idea will work over and over and over again. I think that's the challenge of the brand is finding what works for right now for you and what you're trying to deliver, who you trying to attract, what is the story you're trying to tell?

But what I hope people can start to take away is that we don't need to be as rigid. Yeah. Because that that's, that's not what consumers are looking for. They're they're looking for a story. And I think the more that we tell that, the better.

McLean

And there's a difference between fads and trends.

Michael

Yeah. Good point.

McLean

Truly. And there are some things about classic typography contrast that are going to be enduring for all time. Yeah. And this banana might have really, I mean, made people look at the world a different way. Yeah. You know, back in the 60s and now, you know, and they might be a banana emoji.

Ryan

For ordering eyes. Yeah. Yeah.

McLean

Exactly. And so our students can study this, learn from it and then maybe kind of apply what's going on in today's world. And that's how you connect kind of legacy and heritage with where we're at into this digital-first world.

Ryan

Right. If you don't know where you're coming from, you don't where you know you're going. This is nearly as well. So it's a tried and true mechanism. We're talking we're challenging this idea of going places where you've never been before versus again tried and true, tactics. So clarity of brand messaging if we're challenging the audience to say, look at your design system in a way in which is unorthodox, perhaps how do we have brand consistency? How do we have brand clarity within that challenge?

Michael

Yeah, I mean, you've got like Nike has just do it. That doesn't really go anywhere. But how that evolves through time. They're able to kind of meet the needs of the consumer today. And so there's always a thread I don't think we can just go YOLO all the time. There is something that originally built the brand. Yeah, we need to know what that building block is and work that building block into.

But I think where, we get off is, is we find one thing that works, and then we just do that until it's dead. I think there's a better way to do it.

McLean

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And design systems, you know, there are a constitution. We have a bill of rights. And, you know, it's a rigorous debate and process for amending the Constitution, of course. And that's good. You know, you should have one logo once of the type, all the things. But, honestly, at the same time, I creative directors sometimes can be the ones not pushing far enough, and CEOs can be the ones being too conservative.

Yeah. And they're kind of I it's been my experience. Those junior designers are willing to push boundaries because they don't think they don't have the same conventions that we do. Yeah. So I, I'm like, let them off the leash a little bit, let them go. Keep your constitution, keep your Bill of rights. But it's okay to kind of let folks wander a little bit and see where they go.

Michael

Yeah, I think there's something to getting it wrong, too. Like, all brands have failed, especially the ones that have been around for a while. There are shoes that we will not remember from Nike. You know, there there are products from Apple that have gone to the wayside and, and even campaigns that didn't quite hit. But that doesn't mean that it killed the brand.

And we're so scared sometimes of deviate or even getting, a bad campaign that we, we keep going back to what worked previously rather than allowing ourselves to push the boundaries, get it wrong, knowing that we can recover, we can recreate it again.

McLean

Equally here, past the noise. I was a UX manager at Expedia. So right now, if you go on Expedia, there's 1.2 million users on the site. There's 34 instances of the site running right now. We would change one thing. Panic. How dare you turn it back? Yeah. And then four months later, we change it and they be like, no, no, go back to that thing.

And so also sometimes you just got to kind of put the noise away. You're going to see the comments. Yeah. But users are smart. They're savvy. They'll come with you. So sometimes just pushing past that noise and seeing where you're at in 3 or 4 months and checking back in. Yeah, 100%.

Ryan

That's a great point. As we start to look at the future of selling, no matter what it might be, there's this idea personalization, right? We're all thinking that we can look at smaller cohorts and then kind of give them unique tailored messaging. How do we do personalized design at scale? Is it even achievable? Does it get into does YOLO live inside of that where you you really can go that far as this were the tried and true standards come back to life online.

McLean

So personalization has been very hard because of the technology, truly. For a lot of reasons. And, you know, Amazon was the first to really kind of market it. If you like this, then you like this. And that was, you know, really the foundations of Amazon and personalization as we know it. I am not like a UX visionary or futurist.

Come on. I would say I'm more of a pragmatist, you know, than anything. But I will just say, I think, I think AI is really going to be the game changer for personalization. I just think the tech's there now, and my students are designing with AI, and it is just awesome to see what they're doing with it.

Things I never would have thought of the experiences. So I'm very excited, now that the technology's there and designers kind of have this freedom now to build these experiences that we never quite considered before.

Ryan

What a refreshing perspective, because so many of us that sit in the copywriting chair, the design chair, start to look off and say, is my job so relevant in 2 to 3 years? You're suggesting that the embracing of that is actually how we find security into the future, correct? Or am I wrong?

McLean

My students, we've designed, I tutors, you know, think tutoring is expensive, right? Yeah. No, no. Getting a Spanish tour. That's that's a lot. Yeah. For 999, you can get an AI to do that for you, right? Yeah. I can be your lawyer. Starting the company cost five grand. All those docs. An AI lawyer can do that for ten bucks.

And these are experience. So someone has to design those experiences. Yeah. And so I just think this is a whole new frontier. Yeah. Of design. And we aren't constrained by systems or technologies. And it's true like capital C creative design. And so it's very exciting to see what they're coming up with. Yeah I love.

Ryan

That. I like to pull the thread back. You got a marketer here. I got to sell stuff. I got a job holding up the Avenue standards and such, attracting new audiences while taking some risks. Right. Like as a market, I'm often taking risks. But through design, how far can we go and how much are we willing to test in a way of your acquisition strategy? Be informed by progressive design trends or new installs.

Michael

Yeah, I mean, I think with the personalization, we tie it back in. Yeah. We can actually take more risks at a smaller scale. We that's how risk should be taken. That is true in many ways of if we're we're looking to hedge our bets. Yeah. And so I think it's actually quite exciting because the, the while the modalities of design may start to evolve, maybe we're using more prompts maybe.

Right. But the the end result is actually expansive. Yeah. So now we would make one campaign for one persona that we hope is, is wide enough to, to attract a new customer. Now maybe we have to make 10 to 10 different micro personas that we've identified that needs slightly different messaging, maybe slightly different visuals. So the job of the designer is still to keep that thread going throughout that work.

And maybe what those pixels look like may change, but I think it's a really exciting time where we're actually the impact can be greater. And the, the even though the modality may start to shift.

McLean

Designers are natural risk-takers, which is great. But, you know, you can't just throw caution and be like, okay, here's this new with you know, it doesn't work like that. You have to be able to measure and say why this risk is working. Yeah, truly. And so that's where designers stumble. They're going to push something great, bold big.

They're going to have the clicks to prove it's the conversion to prove it, whatever it might be. And so I think that's honestly the missing piece. We'll take risks, we'll do great work. But those designers just don't know how to kind of pull it back in. So yeah, it's like you say, you know what, let's roll with this now. Yeah. And that's the only kind of thing, missing right now.

Ryan

You mentioned just earlier how creative directors themselves and not all we're not speaking of course, globally, but they can find themselves in a bit of, holding pattern, if you will. You're talking about building the designer of tomorrow, one of which might challenge some creative director. How are you setting them up? That professional dynamic? That's a pretty big a position on that new designer to say it. Creative director. I don't think we're yellowing and off, quite honestly. You know, like how would you go about that?

McLean

I guess the soft skills are the hardest to learn.

Ryan

Unquestionably. Yeah.

McLean

These kids pick up tools real quick, faster than I do. I mean, Figma, they're just flying around. So I appreciate that. But, you know, we bring in real industry pros to critique their work, you know, and you got to hear it. You got to hear, you know, getting the A in school doesn't mean that that's going to work in business.

Right. And so that's why when you're on the internships getting out there, industry events, I think that's just kind of one the student to want to get out there, talk with professionals, come to podcasts like this. And that's where you can pick up those soft skills. And that's really where great design happens. Yeah, yeah.

Ryan

I'd have to imagine that is the true cases. Yeah. So I think this is an opportunity for us to start to tilt into the conversation. That is our album of choice this, this day here. Obviously Andy Warhol is the cover here is one of great contention, but one of our great discussions. So, let's turn the page here on On the Record.

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Ryan

So we're going to talk a little bit now about how we're going to relate modern design versus traditional design. And we're going to do so to the vehicle of, again, this wonderful record here with the banana underneath it, with a secret underneath the banner for those are unfamiliar with that record type. But I want to talk a little bit about how we relate the designers of tomorrow back to this design choice here.

They went very minimalistic. There's negative space everywhere, and they took something that was iconic but wasn't iconic until it created its own story. Yeah. How do we achieve these similar kinds of successes in design, or is this the anomaly?

McLean

I mean, can I, can I can you?

Ryan

Please do I mean, put your hands on it?

McLean

Yeah. I'm ruining the set.

Ryan

No, no, not at all.

McLean

I mean, I think we got to think when this was created. So we're at the 60s and, you know, this is this is saying something about the culture at the time, you know, is it bruised? You know, is it spoiled? You know, what are they saying about our time? And so to me, the thing about timeless design is this gives you a reaction.

You see this in something snaps and that's end. That's what all design has to do. It's got to catch the eye and move a little bit. And that's kind of the enduring part of design, whether it's a banana or wherever we go with it.

Ryan

I love that the power of design and how it moves a person, you know, that's a really, really fantastic call. Hey, Michael, your own version of this. I mean, we're looking at the stark design. How did it first hits you when you saw it?

Michael

I mean, it's it's very memorable. It's not what you expect to see on an album cover. It looks completely different than many of the covers of that day, right? Yeah. So and so like bull, you can tell he knew, like looking at a record store. This thing was going to pop off the shelf. People are going in there looking to discover new music.

This was going to stand out. And it's the type of thing that you're willing to take a risk on. It also has, his name on it. Right. So you have Andy Warhol, kind of bold thing for, the this relatively unknown artist outside of probably New York City debut record. Right. And so you they were able to leverage his kind of brand power, I think in many ways to bring awareness to the record even before you hear the music.

Yeah, itself. And I think that was a unique choice. I don't really we haven't seen that since that that level of ownership of it, of someone who is not actually playing on the record.

McLean

In your sense. Good point. Like we have product designers who designed bottles and things like that. Like if you go to a CVS, every sleep aid is purple. Yeah. You know, and so how are you going to stand out? I'm not saying the solution is a banana, but maybe it's yellow, you know. Right. That's true. Whether it's product design, market, wherever you're at, you know if everyone's doing A try B for a little bit we it happens.

Ryan

That's a fantastic point. I want to kind of strike the balance between innovation and tradition. Right? I mean, how are you cultivating that? McClain with the younger generation of designers, the ones of which Michael and I will employ work with into the future, like how do you bring innovation to life through design?

McLean

That's a good question. I tell them honestly, pick your spots because there are times to innovate in, times to run the business. And so let's go back to like that banking example. You know, we probably won't rock the boat with people like finances, how they pay their mortgage and things like that. Yeah, we keep that in place. But maybe we can reinvent the ATM.

Maybe we can reinvent what it's like to go through the teller experience. Maybe we can use AI there. And so we have spots where you're like, hey, be a little more traditional, know where we're at, and then find those spots for innovation. And to our initial point about kind of alignment with business. Talk to your business leaders about that.

Yeah. Yeah. They'll tell you where we kind of the protected space and then where is the space. We kind of play a little bit.

Michael

I think it's also important to remember that this didn't come out of nowhere. Right? It was new for music and album art, but the actual style was tested by Warhol for four years. Yes. Wine. So he knew what was visually going to attract. Yeah. And then he applied it to a new kind of modality. Right. Like a new a new forum for him, but he really knew what he was doing.

So people are looking at like you're looking at a master of his craft, applying it. Now when we see it, we're comparing it to other albums, which might not be fair because they're not designed by or any work.

Ryan

Yeah, yeah.

Michael

But but I think that's part of it too, is like this, this was a risk, but it was a very proven risk. He had a lot of practice at creating this type of visual appeal. Yeah.

McLean

Brand. Yeah. You can tell I think that's a world.

Michael

I mean yeah, you're right.

Ryan

I mean, you show up in your debut record and that's what you get to throw to market. I mean, what a what an a unique gift. Enough. I want to talk a little bit about testing the elasticity of risk. Right. You knocked it just a second ago. As a leader of a business, how far are you willing to go?

I mean, especially, what would we pay? Just for instance, 11 years old. Equity is one of our strongest assets. We're here today challenging. Maybe we have to look different than we ever have in the past. So where are the guardrails?

Michael

I think it depends on how. What do you want for your upside? Right. So we build a brand. That brand has equity. Yeah. And I think risk is often when it works, it's given a lot of credit. But I think there's so much testing and kind of learning and feedback that we're getting along the way. Yeah, that allow us to take that big swing.

And when that that swing happens, instant success, amazing. Huge risk. But there were like red build didn't just start dropping people out of the sky yesterday. Right? They worked up to make sure that this style of extreme sporting would also sell in an energy drink. And they slowly, through sponsorships, through through customer research, realized that dropping people out of the sky was profitable for them.

And so it seems extreme, but I think for them it was a natural evolution of where they wanted to, to go.

McLean

At, Expedia. So we did 1500 A/B tests a year. Okay.

Ryan

So that's sizable, 1500. For those not familiar.

McLean

And, I would just tell you like it's informed risk. Yeah. At that point. And but I would say it's been my experience that most CEOs are way too risk-averse. Okay. And market share in what it used to be used to be able to kind of own 8% of a market and live there and go nine and now a new company can come through and you can go from 8 to 1 overnight.

Yeah. And so I'm like, if you aren't pushing, if you aren't taking risks, if you aren't innovating, it's a slow, slow death. It really is.

Michael

And you got to get started that absolutely.

McLean

Yeah. I don't know. It's a little call. Yeah.

Michael

Because you dropped from 8 to 1% and you don't have that muscle built. There's it. There's no chance that you're going to then. Yeah. Get it out of the park. Right. So you have to have that muscle ready, and practice with your team. Your team needs to feel safe taking risks and trying new things. Yeah. And without that, if you don't build that into the culture.

Absolutely. Within the brand, like a brand elasticity within the market that you're able to kind of push in these different areas safely. I think it's really hard to catch up once you get surpassed. Absolutely.

Ryan

Though I couldn't agree more. I tested you on the guardrails. And how far out can they be? You mentioned Red Bulls. An example. Yeah, quite the juxtaposition. Extreme sports on one end. And then this odd avant garde sketch design you see in the commercials today, where Red bull gives you wings and the illustrations you choose to move the brand forward are interesting to say it.

Finally, I might suggest so it looks as if, though people like this, a prolific brand can have the guardrails quite clearly defined, but quite wide as well, where the correlation might not be direct, but still it's moving the experience forward. And here the three of us are talking about this example. So it's a compelling time right?

Michael

Yeah. And I think generally the guardrails can be wider than than we expect them to be. But you do have to slowly move those.

McLean

And we we penalize risk, though I can't tell you how many times have sat for performance review and pushed too far there, I did this. I'm like, no, let's especially designers, we're supposed to be working ahead of the business, seeing where users aren't now, but where they're at in three and five years. So even if I push in, we didn't quite get there.

I still pushed us. Yes. Yeah. And so again, I think it's cultural, whether it's your internal marketing to whoever find those spots, whether it's innovation days, innovation weeks, hackathons, whatever, building into the culture there. Yeah. And it's okay if it doesn't work and really celebrate when it does.

Ryan

Yeah, I love that. I think it's an interesting time to segue. We had some great conversations before the film started rolling today about the record itself. Right. We're we're obsessed with a banana on the white background with Andy's signature on it, but there's some music behind this as well. I think the kind of informs today's discussion. And I know, Michael, you're very familiar with this record of listen to it. I don't know how many times you'd want to tell us. Oh, yeah, enough. But like your opinion on the music itself, does it align with this design challenge and put it in the market or what? What do you feel?

Michael

So I think it does enough I think it certainly it's hard to tell because it's with 1967. Right. So the music certainly sounds different than a lot of the other records that we heard. I think the art really helped to draw you into the record. But the the music itself, if we look at what else was released, it was like Jimi Hendrix.

Yeah. Are you experienced, I believe, Beatles, Sergeant Pepper. Those are very different albums. But we were we were moving. This feels definitely very New York. Very, like timely, right? Yeah. We and but MF it had a different cover. I don't know if it would have had the same cultural impact.

Ryan

I don't think so.

Michael

Or if we would have spent enough time to discover songs like heroin and some of those longer, more psychedelic pieces that they were able to take a risk on that.

Ryan

Yeah. I mean, McLean, your version of this as well, I know you're moved by the design, but the music itself?

McLean

Would and here's my disclaimer wrote me and music. So I was in the highly mediocre 90s cover band, that I love, 21, the 24. And then I decided to get my business degree at night. I probably was the right decision and I listened to this yesterday, when I was walking my dog, grape juice. And, I see by the end of it I thought it was from the 90s, you know, or 2000.

It didn't sound like 60s, right? Yeah. We were laughing, but, like California Dreamin and Beach Boys and all that. And for me, it was counterculture. But I think you realize just how monolithic culture was in the 60s because there was like five newspapers, five channels that said, and folks with this young culture that was just dying for something a little different. And so for me, that's what makes it timeless, is it was something then and it still holds up today.

Ryan

Yeah. No. Well said. I'd have to this in my own personal opinion. So things I really pulled from it, there was this grit that was just clearly present on almost every song, even the more melancholy songs versus the more aggressive, yeah, punk authoritative vibes. I couldn't help but appreciate that and what I really love, probably more than anything else I know with the guitar players on the record, but like how John Callahan I had like, Dave Davies of the Kinks 60 million favorite player of all time.

I just felt like he was playing on this record. It's just this twanging, loose string, hard hitting guitar styling that, on some of the more driving songs I thought was just wildly ahead of its time. The King shorter with more success in the mid 70s. This is six, seven, eight years in advance of that, so I feel like they were original, unique to themselves despite this commercialization, that everybody associates this record with them.

We think this and we think pop culture right. It's actually a little bit more. I think there's more depth to it than we might see just on this, the surface here as well.

Michael

So yeah, absolutely. I think it allowed them like a lot of Lou Reed the time to evolve through. Right. Because their next records are arguably better. Yeah. A bit more cohesive and put together. But I don't know if we would have gotten there without the success and the time that he was given to develop through this, like very aggressive brand strategy. I feel like it bought them a little bit of time to evolve.

Ryan

I'd have to agree with that. Yeah. No.

McLean

Very good. And you can tell it they took a risk. Yeah. And they pushed it and they got rewarded for it. Absolutely it because we're talking about it. Yeah I mean that's what 50 years.

Ryan

Yeah I just want to challenge the listener today is it's like you know you only live once or do you just adhere to what was already proven to be successful? There's the safe way and there's the uncharted waters. And I think we might be in kind of putting a ball into this conversation, encouraging the designer of tomorrow, the CEO of tomorrow, the marketing lead of tomorrow to really challenge designers to get the best out of them because I think business outcomes are best found when we go where others fear to go.

Right. And here it is. I mean, banana on a record. They went where others did not go. And again, how many years later we're talking about the record. So in conclusion gentlemen, a couple of key takeaways. Again, we want people to walk away with something they can apply to themselves, whether they're a student, a designer, a creative director, art director.

Michael, what would you say to those that are looking in or listening to this episode and perhaps watching?

Michael

Yeah, I mean, I think the guardrails can be wider than we set them.

McLean

I agree.

Michael

And I think it's all of our job to push out and even with that resistance internally, the act of pushing starts to move the needle. And so I think it's everybody's responsibility to build an adaptive culture that's able to fail, but also able to push for more risk, even if you don't get everything you want, at least you move the needle.

McLean

Maybe the next time you move a little bit further.

Ryan

Yeah, I love that McLain.

McLean

For our designers, you know, you gotta have a little bit of the business with you.

Ryan

Yes.

McLean

You and I don't care. Even if you're an artist. Like someone's gonna buy your art. You know, if you're a chef, someone's gonna buy that. And I would say. But there's some part of commerce. And so I'd say for designers, like, take risk, but know how to explain the value of the risk and whether it's Google Analytics, you know, some bass, there's some good stuff out there to at least give you the power to convince folks like you that it doesn't just look cool, right?

But this is going to move our brand forward. Move our business forward. Yeah. So I'd say that be in for business folks. Everyone can be a little creative. Yeah. And so where is our designers will meet you a little bit on the business start. Why don't you meet this a little bit on the creative part. And that's how you build a really good brand that performs I love that.

Ryan

No, that's that's well said. And I think that, the designer of tomorrow sounds like they're well positioned to impact our business in the way in which we require we also get uncomfortable, right? Growth, which seems to come from a level of discomfort. Right?

McLean

Absolutely.

Ryan

No. It's been excellent today. Gentlemen, McLean, I want to thank you for the unique point of view you were able to offer, because, again, the one-on-one program here at the U of M is free. Shout out to that.

McLean

Thank you.

Ryan

Michael top down. Always appreciate how design is moving the business forward. And I selfishly love design as much as anybody else in this conversation. So, as always, thank you for your time and consideration today. This and much more on episodes of On the Record, and you can find us on your favorite podcast platforms.

Again, thank you for your time today. And this is brought to you by Leadpages.

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